Tobias Solem Posted January 8, 2015 Report Share Posted January 8, 2015 What i notice in the first place is that the official servers are far less populair than the community servers. It feels like the developers are fighting against it with making a server browser where the official servers are in the first place. Lissen to your community and make the game more fun! Official servers feel like an empty map where everything goes so slow paste. We are at the point where the community scripters making more improvement than the dev's itself... Just my opinion.....My initial response was actually in agreement, but then I was thinking as a player again, and not as a tester. We are all really testing this alpha version, and some of us have gone beyond that (and I don't blame them for it). The thing is, there are tons of things you could stack on top of Epoch right now, everything is certainly possible, there's also several servers having lots of scripts and modifications right now, that is attracting a large player base. Some of which might run just fine. And in some way I am sort of envious, because as a player I prefer to have more crap loot, custom harder loot tables, challenging AI-missions, more gun upgrades, etc. and so on - I agree completely with you; as a player.As an admin, and as a tester of this mod, I would say a lot of that aren't what I'm doing this for. One could of course say that AWOL, AXLE & Co. got Mell's house which probably is enough in terms of testing for them. But they've asked for more testing + feedback, and some of us do just that. Our servers are pretty devoid of activity, partly for that very reason.With all that said, I'm not a big fan of how a lot of these mods are implemented, they require changes of mission files, server files, battleye filters, etc. - AND many of them are untested, and come with several glitches, performance issues and bugs themselves, that on top of Epoch's own glitches and bugs and performance problems don't exactly provide with the best platform for evaluating Epoch on its own. I've tried some things on a test server, missions and whatnot, and have seen some performance impacts with running some of these AI-scripts and other modifications, it's going to be a balance act out there even for those who run servers with lots of vehicles, easy loot, and weapons. If there's too many performance issues for the players, they risk losing their player base. And then of course as a new version of Epoch comes out you'll have to merge those sqf-files, init-scripts, config-files, and filters again, hoping it will run smoothly, and if it doesn't, you'll be flustered and annoyed, especially if the next hotfix is just around the corner and you may have to do it all over again (did that with DayZ:Epoch more than twice).My reasoning as a player and as a tester/admin obviously differ. The player part of me is impatient and wants more enemies logging onto our WTP-server (which currently sits at around 20-30 players at peak, far less than I like); I'm also affected by my clan (of 12 or so members) not playing Epoch as much, because they feel there's "nothing to do", and as a player I understand and agree with them. Ahh well, all these "problems" will resolve themselves eventually as we come closer and closer to beta. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KamikazeXeX Posted January 9, 2015 Report Share Posted January 9, 2015 Which mods will this launcher support? Is it going to an unbiased server browser? Or like the web based browser only list mods you deem worthy? Servers will not be listed if they do not deem them worthy, and are running a mod that they refuse to support, completely biased IMO but I would much rather rely on a outside launcher that more people will be using, A3 Launcher is a prime example of said launcher, its not biased, and lists ALL servers on it, if a specific server isn't on there its usually a server specific derp that Maca happily assists with help on, this web based one is merely a Epoch branded launcher that they have complete control over what servers get added, kinda how individual communities make their own launchers for their servers, don't get me wrong its great and will add another access point to servers but my server isn't listed because I run Emod which is a 3 something KB mod that allows server owners a little more customization and flexibility over making changes to their servers and for this reason Epoch are not allowing any server that uses Emod to be listed, Axle has personally said to me and a few others that he has no problem with Emod servers, however I don't think Awol shares this opinion either way I will always rely on a outside source for my player income, just as many other servers have always done so for many years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vbawol Posted January 9, 2015 Report Share Posted January 9, 2015 I think we need to see a proper release of "overpoch" mod before we go adding any support for it. As of right now emod exists solely to modify epoch client files so that derivative code can be used, instead of just making a proper standalone script that works server side or via the mission file. Why go from requiring one mod to requiring 3 or more just to change a few things that could possibly be changed with a config variable or a simple script server side? ZENITHOVMAN 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KamikazeXeX Posted January 9, 2015 Report Share Posted January 9, 2015 I think we need to see a proper release of "overpoch" mod before we go adding any support for it. As of right now emod exists solely to modify epoch client files so that derivative code can be used instead of just making a proper standalone script that works server side or via the mission file. Why go from requiring one mod to requiring 3 or more just to change a few things that could possibly be changed with a config variable or a simple script server side? Whilst you have a valid point the problem that is here is whilst many of the server owners want to make changes they have no idea how to via writing code from the ground up, which is where Emod came in to make things easy again, back in the DayZ days (no pun intended) you would simply redirect a compiled variable to your modified file E.G fnc_usec_selfActions = compile preprocessFileLineNumbers "custom\dayz_code\compile\fn_selfActions.sqf"; which is another thing that Emod does, it re-enables server owners to modify existing code and not make a mess with totally new code that could conflict in several areas of existing code in the mod, mission systems are one of them some of the way the server side code is done causes plenty of issues with it, I know there is now mission systems that are usable without server side code changes but they're all again totally separate mods, I'm not sure if you're aware but the more mods a server runs it can cause issues for launchers, long story short here is I've always preferred to re-route existing code to modified versions, why over complicate small changes that will ultimately run smoother when pulled from client code? Thats why I use Emod, becasue its simple and isn't overly complicated. In reference to "Overpoch" it is simply Epoch and Mas loaded together, Overpoch is simply the name that people know for being more PVP orientated, more weapons, more loot, more action, one of the main problems I came across as a player moving from ArmA 2 to ArmA 3 in general, not Epoch is how bland and empty ArmA 3 is as a game, I think the purpose of loading multiple mods together with Epoch is self explanatory and its to simply to add more content and bring some more enjoyment to buying the game, I played on the closed alpha with a key I got from Axle and it was the first time I've played ArmA 3 since i bought it, I can honestly say me and my community thoroughly enjoyed it but that excitement got lost after we realized there really wasn't a lot we could do, I understand that the mod is early alpha and that lots of features are subject to change but the community is asking for more than you guys have which is why us server owners feel the need to give our servers the cutting edge over one another. I completely understand your reasoning behind what methods you utilize on things and respect it but its just making more work for anyone trying to do anything simple anymore, as a community owner that funds all our own servers we have to find ways to enable us to keep people interested as we also know certain things have caused a lot of issues with people, with the greatest of respect please don't let A3 Epoch become what feels like Breaking point as there may as well be no public server files at this point Gotcha 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeForeman1 Posted January 9, 2015 Report Share Posted January 9, 2015 I think we need to see a proper release of "overpoch" mod before we go adding any support for it. As of right now emod exists solely to modify epoch client files so that derivative code can be used, instead of just making a proper standalone script that works server side or via the mission file. Why go from requiring one mod to requiring 3 or more just to change a few things that could possibly be changed with a config variable or a simple script server side? Surely A2 Epoch's popularity was down to the fact you could mod to your own taste? With ARMA3, it is impossible to override functions as they are compileFinaled, so this makes it impossible to modify the behavior of pre-compiled functions that have been loaded with "preinit" in cfgFunctions. A prime example of this, is fixing bugs before an official update can be pushed out. Also for people who want to run extra weapon packs, it is impossible to added those weapons to the traders. Most people do not have the ability/facilities to release a mod and expecting new scripts to be released as there own mods is ridiculous. All Emod is doing is allowing server owners to modify there own servers, you guys may not agree with it but you decided to release the mod publicly and it is impossible to stop people tinkering with the code... tl;dr; Epoch's popularity has come from its customizability, don't take it away from server owners. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zupa Posted January 9, 2015 Report Share Posted January 9, 2015 I think we need to see a proper release of "overpoch" mod before we go adding any support for it. As of right now emod exists solely to modify epoch client files so that derivative code can be used, instead of just making a proper standalone script that works server side or via the mission file. Why go from requiring one mod to requiring 3 or more just to change a few things that could possibly be changed with a config variable or a simple script server side? Well, since the current OverPoch ( whats in a name). Which is just basicly MAS added & edited lootables if you want it full Epoch style. I would guess you can add that support easely to allow loot tables overrides in server config? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Hartford Posted January 9, 2015 Report Share Posted January 9, 2015 I think we need to see a proper release of "overpoch" mod before we go adding any support for it. As of right now emod exists solely to modify epoch client files so that derivative code can be used, instead of just making a proper standalone script that works server side or via the mission file. Why go from requiring one mod to requiring 3 or more just to change a few things that could possibly be changed with a config variable or a simple script server side? Firstly all "overpoch" is, is simply more weapons added to the game. What else server owners add is completely up to them and there is no release for overpoch as anyone can add @Mas (the most commonly used weapon pack) to a server and there. As far as adding support for it, if you would like to do this then server sided edits are required to loot tables or mission file loot spawning system. Why go from 1 mod to 3? Because using a launcher automatically installs and enables them so it isn't an issue to do so (A3L, SurvivalLauncher, even your own web browser does this). As for the config variable or simple server sided script, well client side is possible yes however you yourself prevent the server sided part so why include that as a reason against it? There is no point in mentioning adding a server side script if you lock the code down with dlls as it doesn't really make sense. Adding support for OverPoch isn't needed as it really is just launching with another mod, obviously you could allow people to modify the server config file and therefore allow changes to the loot tables etc if you would like however no support is needed for OP as it is simply a name. As for Emod it exists to allow people do adds support for this, without you guys even needing to do anything, its a 3KB download that is freely available and allows the use of standalone scripts without being blocked by your restrictions. Surely A2 Epoch's popularity was down to the fact you could mod to your own taste? With ARMA3, it is impossible to override functions as they are compileFinaled, so this makes it impossible to modify the behavior of pre-compiled functions that have been loaded with "preinit" in cfgFunctions. A prime example of this, is fixing bugs before an official update can be pushed out. Also for people who want to run extra weapon packs, it is impossible to added those weapons to the traders. Most people do not have the ability/facilities to release a mod and expecting new scripts to be released as there own mods is ridiculous. All Emod is doing is allowing server owners to modify there own servers, you guys may not agree with it but you decided to release the mod publicly and it is impossible to stop people tinkering with the code... Epoch's popularity has come from its customizability, don't take it away from server owners. This point is one that I'm sure all server owners will agree on, official hosts or blacklisted, everybody changes something about their servers to make them better, restricting this simply because you don't like it, not great for the community, theres already enough threads about custom scripts that it offers enough evidence to support this, so I ask, please stop blocking things and blacklisting people who do so, everybody is here for a reason, a love of epoch and modding, so don't take that away from everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MisterT Posted January 9, 2015 Report Share Posted January 9, 2015 Way better than a3 or any other 3rd party program. No updates needed. Great work Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BenR Posted January 10, 2015 Report Share Posted January 10, 2015 Don't really mind updates for a standalone as they are very small and offer much more functionality than a web browser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axle Posted January 11, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 11, 2015 Surely A2 Epoch's popularity was down to the fact you could mod to your own taste? With ARMA3, it is impossible to override functions as they are compileFinaled, so this makes it impossible to modify the behavior of pre-compiled functions that have been loaded with "preinit" in cfgFunctions. A prime example of this, is fixing bugs before an official update can be pushed out. Also for people who want to run extra weapon packs, it is impossible to added those weapons to the traders. Most people do not have the ability/facilities to release a mod and expecting new scripts to be released as there own mods is ridiculous. All Emod is doing is allowing server owners to modify there own servers, you guys may not agree with it but you decided to release the mod publicly and it is impossible to stop people tinkering with the code... tl;dr; Epoch's popularity has come from its customizability, don't take it away from server owners. Here's what I don't get, you play stupid all along and know what the deal is. You already know that the checks in place will be removed in time yet you still use it as the ultimate excuse. How about you just wait until we have a version that you can fully modify till your hearts content. I'm getting sick of this circle jerk you keep bringing here. Please make sure you take every aspect into account before making yet another redundant post. Darth_Rogue, GasT and BetterDeadThanZed 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torndeco Posted January 15, 2015 Report Share Posted January 15, 2015 To be fair... most people would have been under the impression of an open release day one.... It was then a closed server release fair enough, i can understand that Then you guys went with a public release of server files... gave a date etc + forum post. Not once was it mentioned that Epoch Extension does checksum checks, alters publicvariable etc That wasn't made public till people asked questions Personally i asked AWOL on Skype about it Day 1 of Release about the obfuscated server code,... Most Admins Like the ability to customize their Server a little Now only some admins might understand coding but blah you can argue that. ------------------- So far i rewrote the Server Code to use extDB Yep that means i have gone through the hassle of un-obfuscated the servercode. To acompilish the following 1) Proper secure locked vehicles within range of Base Jammer / Emitter So only group or last person to lock vehicle and open it, assuming jammer belongs to that person / group. Yes you could try implement another way but it would be inefficient and wastes cpu, easier to alter the locking / unlocking code than trying to fight against code that is running. 2) Bypass the publicvariables with my own custom publicvariables for Spawning Units, to spawn custom AI fsm for (multiple) Sappers. Increase the limit on AI Spawning Add support for HC dumb zombie horde Idea is zombie horde distracts player while sapper runs in and blows up... It increases difficulty, most dangerous thing about sappers is explosion gives your position away. 3) Proper random player spawns with helio spawn etc... Prevents camping areas around trader spawn locations. Atleast till you guys get that trader guard ai working nicely (gl with that). But then again someone got a nice AI Driving Script out on Arma3 Forums, i wasn't expecting that. 4) I also recently just fixed issue with an issue with the antihack. While on anti-hack subject you guys are making un-neccesary callExtensions Just have the extension log entries have timestamps by default reduces your callExtension by 1 for every log entry. Same goes for Saving Storage System, you have 2 callExtensions to save BUILDING Info that override each other. I also assume traders don't remove empty quanitys from their Item List in the Database, unless the extension is doing that internally. Personnally i added code when loading Trader Inventory to ignore empty quanitys from Array. That way next player trade it gets updated with smaller array (not containing empty quanities) 5) Override the standard Weather System nicely i.e at player login 6) Disabled UAV + AI Spawns, idea is interested but broken in implementation imo. Plus standard arma AI isn't great ---------------------- ---------------------- Normally i do feedback changes i.e If i notice a bug want a heads up or just ignore it in the future ?? And just assume you guys have it fixed already. Code obfuscated tool is renaming key variables i.e _forEachIndex Since it was defined as private EPOCH_server_revivePlayer.sqf. currently renamed in _ae for public server files Pretty sure thats not gonna work correctly / as intended De-obfuscated Serverfiles, noticed issue, explained it + pointed out the issue. Not one mention of thanks or any credit given in the Readme over the bug overreport / fix. Turns out the issue was actually effecting afew different files aswell. You guys ask me to test linux version but don't want to show me code sigh... Also got asked to make a Server Browser aswell at one point. Not to mention the odd Python Script to help out like adding info to bunch of sqf files to help benchmark timings etc.. ---------------------- ---------------------- EMod just allows admins to override client files.... Honestly the current A3 EPOCH just reminds me of DayZ Standalone, limited options you can alter. You are asking people to use mods to alter EPOCH, someone makes Emod which accomplishes what most admins would like. You blacklist the mod from your web browser Just ask author Maca to put up disclaimer in the mod code, so when it launches it warns this isn't Standard A3 EPOCH + warn that it may be broken. For me Emod means Reduce chance of dog spawns + fix FSM so possible to run away from Dog. Most people i know shoot the dog for barking and following them. Or just log off + come back after it despawns. Override the Group Requests WIP + WIP buttons that overlap the inventory screeen.... You know how annoying it is to see an issue. Absolute Co-ords overlaying a dialog using Safezones Co-ords... All the dialogs need abit of work (especially for players running low resolution), some i can change atm, some i can't But who knows what you guys will lock down even more. Also i have a different method to spawn in characters with inventory serverside that doesn't run into your issue of Magazine count not matching up for the first player to login to server. ---------------------- ---------------------- Edit: Sorry about the wall of text... Its just my opinion Anyway as for opening everything up at 1.0, there is no time-frame. You guys could change your mind by then, so far i only got your actions for A3 Epoch to base everything off. Completely different to what i was expecting from A2 Epoch Anyway gl with A3 Epoch it has potential Hexebus 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tobias Solem Posted January 15, 2015 Report Share Posted January 15, 2015 They probably should have kept it to themselves for much longer imo. - because the majority seems to be unaware that this alpha mod is extremely unfinished. You found some redundant callextensions and code that negates itself, well that IS a part of testing and fixing shit (ie. alpha) optimizing code is a process.Like they themselves keep saying over, and over, and over... once there's a working foundation of the mod, once it has matured enough, these extra "checks and balances" will be removed. During the testing phase they want to keep things in lockdown. Obviously people are getting around that, obviously people are doing what they want with the mod anyways, and I do understand why, because they want this mod to have more features and functions and stuff so it is more like what currently is in vanilla.Well guess what, that's the very same goal that the devs have, but they want to have a stable platform on which to build those additional functions. They want to fix all the issues with the core of the mod BEFORE they add a bunch of stuff on top of it. And they want feedback and reports on that very core, because of feedback received about something that breaks because of something added on a custom server is completely useless to them.Again, I think they should've just kept it under wraps until such a time where the foundation was more complete, and the code was more proofread, etc. - this would've kept so much drama at bay. But like the saying goes: once the cat is out of the bag... San, nedfox, GasT and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GasT Posted January 15, 2015 Report Share Posted January 15, 2015 Surely A2 Epoch's popularity was down to the fact you could mod to your own taste? With ARMA3, it is impossible to override functions as they are compileFinaled, so this makes it impossible to modify the behavior of pre-compiled functions that have been loaded with "preinit" in cfgFunctions. A prime example of this, is fixing bugs before an official update can be pushed out. Also for people who want to run extra weapon packs, it is impossible to added those weapons to the traders. Most people do not have the ability/facilities to release a mod and expecting new scripts to be released as there own mods is ridiculous. All Emod is doing is allowing server owners to modify there own servers, you guys may not agree with it but you decided to release the mod publicly and it is impossible to stop people tinkering with the code... tl;dr; Epoch's popularity has come from its customizability, don't take it away from server owners. Server owners like the customizability most of the players could care less, sure players like additions but can in general with a bit of whining wait for it to evolve unlike community hosts. If Epoch had been closed like Breaking Point it would still be very popular just like Breaking Point is after 1.5 year in ARMA3. My experience is that most communities rather screw things up then make things better, only a very small portion of the communities actually helps to evolve it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BetterDeadThanZed Posted January 15, 2015 Report Share Posted January 15, 2015 Torndeco, Your hard work is appreciated, I'm not real sure, but I believe there's a way to submit changes to the code in Github, isn't there? Couldn't you submit your changes for consideration to be added to Epoch? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BetterDeadThanZed Posted January 15, 2015 Report Share Posted January 15, 2015 I like the idea of a stand alone Epoch browser. Breaking Point has one and it's nice. Makes distribution of the mod easier. You guys can complain all you want about the devs restricting which servers show up but it comes down to being their web page and they've already explained their stance on it so I don't think tey are going to give you a response beyond what they've already said. We've got alternatives so be happy with those and use them. I doubt many people are using the web page to join the servers anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BetterDeadThanZed Posted January 15, 2015 Report Share Posted January 15, 2015 Im simply asking a question, thats all, not a compliant. They've already addressed the questions about why some mod are excluded. That was my point. They aren't going to repeat themselves every time someone asks why and they obviously aren't going to change it anytime soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tobias Solem Posted January 15, 2015 Report Share Posted January 15, 2015 Your joking right, Epochs popularity is built on the fact you can mod it! Certainly, though only 1 in 10 mod it sensibly and thus 9/10 servers end up empty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GasT Posted January 15, 2015 Report Share Posted January 15, 2015 Your joking right, Epochs popularity is built on the fact you can mod it! No not joking ARMA´s popularity is built on the fact that you can mod it for sure, but I´m 100% that Epoch would be very popular even if they had done it Breaking Points way. Epochs popular cause it brought base building into a DayZ type game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cen Posted January 15, 2015 Report Share Posted January 15, 2015 No not joking ARMA´s popularity is built on the fact that you can mod it for sure, but I´m 100% that Epoch would be very popular even if they had done it Breaking Points way. Epochs popular cause it brought base building into a DayZ type game. LOL this guy is funny. Go look at vanilla servers and see how many there are (A2 or A3). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GasT Posted January 15, 2015 Report Share Posted January 15, 2015 LOL this guy is funny. Go look at vanilla servers and see how many there are (A2 or A3). There would be more if there wasn´t a bunch of small modded, server that offers PTW, easy street 1000 vehicle´s. People would settle and think it was fun with Vanilla but get drawn with candy and advantages to other. There are more reasons to but to say that Epoch would unpopular if all modded servers disapears then I think you are really only fooling yourself and disrespecting the Epoch devs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cen Posted January 15, 2015 Report Share Posted January 15, 2015 There would be more if there wasn´t a bunch of small modded, server that offers PTW, easy street 1000 vehicle´s. People would settle and think it was fun with Vanilla but get drawn with candy and advantages to other. There are more reasons to but to say that Epoch would unpopular if all modded servers disapears then I think you are really only fooling yourself and disrespecting the Epoch devs. When there were 5-6 servers and files weren't released vanilla was popular. Mell's was #1 and full all the time. Do you know why? Players had no other choice! So yes, they played vanilla because there were no other options at the time. But once the files were released, and small mods started popping up, that's when vanilla servers die. Happened with DayZ, happened with A2 Epoch, happened with A3 Epoch. History teaches us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GasT Posted January 15, 2015 Report Share Posted January 15, 2015 When there were 5-6 servers and files weren't released vanilla was popular. Mell's was #1 and full all the time. Do you know why? Players had no other choice! So yes, they played vanilla because there were no other options at the time. But once the files were released, and small mods started popping up, that's when vanilla servers die. Happened with DayZ, happened with A2 Epoch, happened with A3 Epoch. History teaches us. And what is it I have been saying all the time.. It was you who said that without the modders there would more or less be no Epoch. Epoch would work well without modders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
choppra Posted January 15, 2015 Report Share Posted January 15, 2015 When there were 5-6 servers and files weren't released vanilla was popular. Mell's was #1 and full all the time. Do you know why? Players had no other choice! So yes, they played vanilla because there were no other options at the time. But once the files were released, and small mods started popping up, that's when vanilla servers die. Happened with DayZ, happened with A2 Epoch, happened with A3 Epoch. History teaches us. It absolutely does. If you flip between 'official servers' and 'all servers' you see a huge difference. There is a HUGE disadvantage to the 'official servers' by seperating this list. Think about it. A newb jumps on the list and sees a bunch of dead servers in the 'official list'. He/She then flips it over to 'all' and sees all these modded servers that are jam packed. Do you think they will ever check the 'official servers again?' No. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
choppra Posted January 15, 2015 Report Share Posted January 15, 2015 And what is it I have been saying all the time.. It was you who said that without the modders there would more or less be no Epoch. Epoch would work well without modders. Sure, if A2 epoch was 100% closed then yes we wouldn't be in this situation. They have a very popular mod that was embraced by a bunch of people who made cool scripts and mods. Then they were made fun by guys like Sequisha for making deployable bikes and Self Blood Bag (live on his stream). I'm expecting posts to get deleted and this thread to be cleaned but whatever - we're used to this by now. Since A2 Epoch was so open everyone expected A3 to be open. They didn't want to anger every so they only allowed certain stuff. Eventually those same talented folks who made great mods and scripts got around those blocks. In the end, I'm ultimately annoyed with the way things turned out. This was really fun but I feel like the fun is getting sucked out by all the negativity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cen Posted January 15, 2015 Report Share Posted January 15, 2015 And what is it I have been saying all the time.. It was you who said that without the modders there would more or less be no Epoch. Epoch would work well without modders. When did I say that again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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