GhostTown Posted February 16, 2014 Report Share Posted February 16, 2014 So I have a few questions about this new post Every type of game does this type of donation. Alot of players wont donate unless they receive items. This has been going on in DayZ since the start of private HIVES and now its being frowned upon? The user/client/player choses to donate for said items. This helps the server with running cost and also helps said players out. What is the difference for giving a player a full custom loadout everytime he/she spawns or giving them a combo lock? lol Lets take a look at one of the main Official servers. Its alright for them to make over $400 in donations for Loadouts and Humanity but another server is frowned upon for making $3 for a set of combo locks? If its a player choice why is it frowned upon? So any game that does Micro-Transactions should be a no no and people shouldn't buy said items? Business do this. If you donate you will get some type of return from it and its still classed as a donation. In my state. DONATING blood/plasma will get you $300 but its still a donation. This is just my two sense and I understand if this post gets deleted. Im just a little curious on the reasons behind this thats all. I do donations and I will look at removing them. As for legal terms. Anyone who donates on any of my servers or games must agree to terms and conditions, http://pastebin.com/94YpdzD5 maca134, JohnesNumb and Michael_CCG 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheVampire Posted February 16, 2014 Report Share Posted February 16, 2014 I agree, but I believe that Bohemia views all content (meaning code, models, etc) that is made for their engine as their property. Therefore by "selling" items in game, they view it as you profiting from their property. All mods made for DayZ have to be free to play. Thats why a certain DayZ mod hasn't released their server files, and the only place you can rent a server hosting their files is owned by someone they know, making them money from hosting, but not from selling bohemias content. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostTown Posted February 16, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2014 I agree. But how does that then allow loadouts cause your still *selling* items to a player. I understand where awol is coming from and his reasons. But if your going to BAN server owners for having donations than that should go for all servers and all type of returns for a donation. Loadouts should not be allowed either. Humanity is also still property of Bohemia and that should not be allowed as well as your selling that item. And in turn will mean alot less people will donate. I just dont think you cant create a rule and licence for that and allow loop holes. If a Donation is NOT allowed to receive any type of return. Than that should be it. Not allowing other stuff to bypass the rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vbawol Posted February 16, 2014 Report Share Posted February 16, 2014 This has been our stance for a while now, we are only just now attempting to enforce it on our forum as we feel it is important to not let this become a runaway train. There are many other ways to reward players for donating, selling in-game items via a "store" should not be one of them. Not only does it break the DML, it is also disrespectful to those of us that created these items to be used free for everyone. Simply allow players to donate first then (if you wish) reward them with a random item grab bag, so long as the DayZ Epoch items are not used as a pawn just to attract donations/sales. Halvhjearne 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostTown Posted February 16, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2014 This has been our stance for a while now, we are only just now attempting to enforcing it on our forum as we feel it is important to not let this become a runaway train. There are many other ways to reward players for donating, selling in-game items via a "store" should not be one of them. Not only does it break the DML, it is also disrespectful to those of us that created these items to be used free for everyone. Simply allow players to donate first then if you wish reward them with a random item grab bag so long as the DayZ Epoch items are not used as a pawn just to attract donations. Thank you for clearing that up. Still kinda confused on Donations are given without return consideration. So that should mean no Donor loadouts and Humanity and stuff. Thats my only point Michael_CCG 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Defent Posted February 16, 2014 Report Share Posted February 16, 2014 What people are mixing up here is buying and donating. If you buy something you may have the right for a return consideration. However, due to the nature of donations and it's intended purpose, they are not supposed to have a return policy. That is why you can not use donations as a method of expecting, wanting and receving anything in return. A donation is a "Imperfect contract void for want of consideration". This means that you donate without any consideration on a reward. Many laws actually forbid or frown on the fact that you get items, object or anything of value in return of your donation. A donation is made when you feel like it, not for personal gain. This defeats the whole ideology. The return policy can be changed. This would require a form of written document stating the return policy and how it can be achived. Donation ≠ Buying - a work protected by copyright law and DMCA (etc) can not be sold, bought, donated and or any of it's like by a 3rd/4th party without the consent of the 1st (or 2nd?) party as far as I know. The blood donation you speak of can not be compared to the donation of money towards a game server. You own the blood, giving it away in a form of donation can be rewarded IF stated by the reciver. This is a different technicality than that of a donation towards personal gain. Again, referring to 2nd, 3rd and 4th party ownership. IReeceI 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BetterDeadThanZed Posted February 16, 2014 Report Share Posted February 16, 2014 If you want to have a BBQ for your friends, they can have a good time eating food, drinking beer and socializing. Asking them to contribute towards the cost of getting everything isn't "comercializing". It's simply asking your friends to share in the expense. In return they get hot dogs, hamburgers, beer and a good time. The same goes for a server. Encouraging a player to donate, then giving them something more than just a good time isn't comercializing. Michael_CCG and drumsetjunky 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maca134 Posted February 16, 2014 Report Share Posted February 16, 2014 Basicly, Axle told me to I can either: Remove public access to our donate store. Get banned off the forums and ALL my posts get deleted. Including all the times I help and post stuff... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hooch Posted February 16, 2014 Report Share Posted February 16, 2014 Ok so if we cannot receive donations and give a free gift in return, would you like to help cover the £150.00per month costs of running the server? BetterDeadThanZed 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maca134 Posted February 16, 2014 Report Share Posted February 16, 2014 We simply can not operate without the donations from our community so im not prepared to do that... They are ALL donations and all go back into running the community, we are not commercial entity and you are being unrealistic to expect server owner/communities cover the costs of servers without providing something in return, its bullshit but there it is... So ye, Good bye forums! Its been fun... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richie Posted February 16, 2014 Report Share Posted February 16, 2014 So you simply don't advertise it on the Epoch forum, problem solved :) It's not like they can actully do anything to stop it, BIS have T&C's and Epoch have let the community know, that's covered their back. It's unenforcable, just use common sense and carry on as normal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostTown Posted February 16, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2014 Well there must be a snitch in the system. Someone is sending websites around that offer donations. Anyways I agree with maca. Players just simply wont donate/buy anything unless it has a return. I dont think they really care cause there main community server gets to make over $400 in donations for loadouts and humanity. And I think thats why loadouts is a exception. If your going to enforce such a rule than that should be enforced for everyone and everything that is a return for a donation. Like I said I have my back covered with the donation system because all must agree to my community's TOS. http://pastebin.com/94YpdzD5 Which is written out and covers any disputes and laws. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antartis Posted February 16, 2014 Report Share Posted February 16, 2014 I wander if the whole dayz, and epoch was hosted in those crappy 30 dollars servers we still have dayz today..... dayz and epoch need to thank those people, who host this crappy game on expensive machines and keep the mod alive, and is not coincidence that from that same group of people are the ones who help and contribute the most with scripts, help, etc, so IMO instead of this stupid witch hunt you need to have some sense here and give thanks for the people doing this. thats my 2 cents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richie Posted February 16, 2014 Report Share Posted February 16, 2014 If BIS hadn't wrote a game engine so demanding and without Linux support we wouldn't need such powerful servers :rolleyes: I pay almost as much for the Windoze license as i do for the server and use a quad-core Xeon just for 1 Epoch server. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vbawol Posted February 16, 2014 Report Share Posted February 16, 2014 Ok so if we cannot receive donations and give a free gift in return, would you like to help cover the £150.00per month costs of running the server? You can certainly give a free gift in return, What we do not approve of is blatantly selling in-game items via a public shop/store. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vbawol Posted February 16, 2014 Report Share Posted February 16, 2014 If you want to have a BBQ for your friends, they can have a good time eating food, drinking beer and socializing. Asking them to contribute towards the cost of getting everything isn't "comercializing". It's simply asking your friends to share in the expense. In return they get hot dogs, hamburgers, beer and a good time. The same goes for a server. Encouraging a player to donate, then giving them something more than just a good time isn't comercializing. You are correct, However selling in-game items in a shop/store is like setting up a stand in your front lawn with a sign that says Beer $5 and that is commercializing it and illegal in most places while selling the empty cup for $5 and providing free beer is not illegal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vbawol Posted February 16, 2014 Report Share Posted February 16, 2014 Thank you for clearing that up. Still kinda confused on Donations are given without return consideration. So that should mean no Donor loadouts and Humanity and stuff. Thats my only point Donor loadouts are fine with us so long as the items are not from DayZ Epoch and only from Arma 2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vbawol Posted February 16, 2014 Report Share Posted February 16, 2014 What people are mixing up here is buying and donating. If you buy something you may have the right for a return consideration. However, due to the nature of donations and it's intended purpose, they are not supposed to have a return policy. That is why you can not use donations as a method of expecting, wanting and receving anything in return. A donation is a "Imperfect contract void for want of consideration". This means that you donate without any consideration on a reward. Many laws actually forbid or frown on the fact that you get items, object or anything of value in return of your donation. A donation is made when you feel like it, not for personal gain. This defeats the whole ideology. The return policy can be changed. This would require a form of written document stating the return policy and how it can be achived. Donation ≠ Buying - a work protected by copyright law and DMCA (etc) can not be sold, bought, donated and or any of it's like by a 3rd/4th party without the consent of the 1st (or 2nd?) party as far as I know. The blood donation you speak of can not be compared to the donation of money towards a game server. You own the blood, giving it away in a form of donation can be rewarded IF stated by the reciver. This is a different technicality than that of a donation towards personal gain. Again, referring to 2nd, 3rd and 4th party ownership. What you said is dead on, what some seem to forget is that there is a difference and it has allot to do with the way it is being presented to the public. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axle Posted February 16, 2014 Report Share Posted February 16, 2014 Basicly, Axle told me to I can either: Remove public access to our donate store. Get banned off the forums and ALL my posts get deleted. Including all the times I help and post stuff... Maca, don't twist what I told you. Your site blatantly SELLS Epoch items. There is no donation involved. I have explained to you how to do it properly with the same end result. If you refuse to comply with the wishes of the creator and author then we will take action. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Achmed Posted February 16, 2014 Report Share Posted February 16, 2014 I have explained to you how to do it properly with the same end result. Can you share this information pls so we all know what would be allowed giving the same end result Michael_CCG 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axle Posted February 16, 2014 Report Share Posted February 16, 2014 I wander if the whole dayz, and epoch was hosted in those crappy 30 dollars servers we still have dayz today..... dayz and epoch need to thank those people, who host this crappy game on expensive machines and keep the mod alive, and is not coincidence that from that same group of people are the ones who help and contribute the most with scripts, help, etc, so IMO instead of this stupid witch hunt you need to have some sense here and give thanks for the people doing this. thats my 2 cents. I can agree with this, it's why I spent over an hour speaking with Maca in person to try and help resolve this issue in a way that allows him to have the same result using a slightly different method. We could just outright remove them from the forums, something I don't want to do because he is quite helpful here and that in itself can cause his community to grow. But if he can't respect the wishes of the author/creator the same way we do then it's an issue. When the author of a mod that we use in Epoch ask's us to remove it without legally having grounds to have us remove it doesn't mean that we just blow them off and do our own thing. We respect the wishes of the original creator and comply to his requests. We would hope others can see it that way too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axle Posted February 16, 2014 Report Share Posted February 16, 2014 Can you share this information pls so we all know what would be allowed giving the same end result Send me a msg here or hop in Teamspeak "Just right click Axle's name and poke him". I'll be glad to help anyone that would like to go about doing donations properly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maca134 Posted February 16, 2014 Report Share Posted February 16, 2014 Our "sales" are contributions to the server. It is with these that we keep our servers running, no profits are made from these. They are just the same as all the "Donation Perks" that loads of other servers offer. Regardless, we will change the way we handle our donations so we are doing it "properly". Changes have already been made... Axle 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axle Posted February 16, 2014 Report Share Posted February 16, 2014 Our "sales" are contributions to the server. It is with these that we keep our servers running, no profits are made from these. They are just the same as all the "Donation Perks" that loads of other servers offer. Regardless, we will change the way we handle our donations so we are doing it "properly". It's the misconception of Sales vs Donations. It's not what you say/write but how it's said/written. We aren't against you trying to recover the cost for your community to stay strong. It just needs to be done properly. We do appreciate your willingness to change things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sequisha Posted February 16, 2014 Report Share Posted February 16, 2014 We simply can not operate without the donations from our community so im not prepared to do that... They are ALL donations and all go back into running the community, we are not commercial entity and you are being unrealistic to expect server owner/communities cover the costs of servers without providing something in return, its bullshit but there it is... So ye, Good bye forums! Its been fun... I'm not sure what's so difficult to understand about all of this. But then again, what do I know...I'm just a silly modeler ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Glad the assets I authored were helping you stay afloat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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