Confused! vbawol say's don't give gear for donations, then teams with someone that 'sells' in-game gear???

[PetuniaEpoch]

Vbawol, I'd like some clarification please.

 

As a server owner, we do accept donations, and we do reward people for those donations.

 

Here, you appear to condemn server owners offering gear for donations: http://dayzepoch.com/forum/index.php?/topic/3488-donations-are-supposed-to-be-given-without-return-consideration/ - THEN lock the thread so that nobody can discuss...

 

 

It has been brought to my attention via several sources that some server owners have setup Item Malls and are selling in-game items in exchange for "donations". I have talked with BI about this and they do not condone this type of donation scheme and neither do I.

 

I strongly recommend that players never donate for in-game items. Donor loadouts are acceptable as long as the items are from ArmA 2, ArmA 2 OA, or DayZ and not from DayZ Epoch mod.

YET HERE you state that EPOCH itself is accepting sponsorship from a DayZ server host that HAS A SHOP for SELLING GEAR! - http://dayzepoch.com/forum/index.php?/topic/3535-new-development-server-sponsored-by-bmrf/

 

It's not like they offer small things either! up to $50 donations, and 'in-game gear' like:

 WEAPON
Golden AKS & revolver /w 3 mags
 
 SPECIAL
$500 on spawn, carry 2 primaries
 
 MEDICAL
2x medkit
 
 ITEMS
1x rangefinders, 3x can of food, 3x water bottle, 1x (full) jerrycan, skin pack

So which is it?

 

Are you really saying that us small guys that are trying to get donations to keep our servers going don't meet with your approval, whilst accepting sponsorship from a dayz server host that has a shop for in-game gear???

 

I REALLY like Epoch, seriously! best dayz mod there is, and you guys do a GREAT job! but I don't like server hosts being condemned for something that your sponsors also do, and that you then benefit from too!

 

Have I got something wrong here?

 

My own personal views are that I don't mind Donor slots as long as they allow plenty of free space on the server (WE use them! our 30 slot server is 30 + 5 donor slots, and if we get more donations we can upgrade hardware, and increase both free, and donor slots - to keep it fair).

 

I also don't mind donor loadouts, or BASIC goods being available via a real world store, so long as its not game changing

 

So I have no issue with what the new sponsors do!

 

I just have issue with EPOCH saying this shouldn't be done by us server hosts, and then accepting sponsorship from someone - meaning they are likely benefiting from something that they tell us shouldn't be done!

[PetuniaEpoch]

I want to add...

 

I actually think it's cool Epoch gets a sponsor. Helps to get the dev queue down, helps Epoch get even better - all good! And I have no issue with the sponsorship coming from a company that's making some of their money selling in-game gear and perks either!

 

I just wish that vbawol realised that us small server owners are just trying to do the same thing! Get a few $ per month so that we can grow our servers, upgrade hardware, and generally develop as we grow! And one mechanism we do that (some of us) is indeed through rewards for donations - just like Epoch now benefits from :)

[Gostrydr]

 

 

Donor loadouts are acceptable as long as the items are from ArmA 2, ArmA 2 OA, or DayZ and not from DayZ Epoch mod.

 

 None of the donor items listed are Epoch items.

[PetuniaEpoch]

Indeed. However that is just referring to DONOR LOADOUTS... Gear, other than donor loadouts are not acceptable according to VBAWOL's post, and it doesn't appear that what is being sold on that page is a loadouts as such (as in - gear you spawn with when dying). Or maybe I got that wrong?

 

Also, VBAWOL says no epoch items - Hmmm, where's the money from thats part of their offering? That not Epoch? 

[EDIT: Ahhh I see - Epoch ones don't have the money! MMMmmkay.]

 

So, selling gear like the sponsors do is fine - but not any other way? I don't get the reason for this. And, why is it okay to give a reward of stuff from any other mod, but not Epoch?

 

I just want to understand the reasoning behind it is all! Not trying to be a dick! I like the fact Epoch gets sponsorship now! They deserve it! But then so do server owners who spend countless hours sorting out their servers, reporting bugs, fixing stuff for players etc!

 

Just seems a bit odd to me. Condemning server hosts for giving perks for donations, but then taking sponsorship from, and ADVERTISING a server host that does just that!

 

Why can't it be the same rule for all? We're all just trying to improve our games/servers anyway! 

 

I guess I'll shut up now, before I annoy anyone! I just don't get why its okay to reward with dayz/arma stuff, but not Epoch stuff! 

 

Last point tho - Don't take any of this the wrong way VBAWOL - I love epoch, and you do a great job!

 

 

 

 None of the donor items listed are epoch items.

[Gostrydr]

Indeed. However that is just referring to DONOR LOADOUTS... Gear, other than donor loadouts are not acceptable according to VBAWOL's post, and it doesn't appear that what is being sold on that page is a loadouts as such (as in - gear you spawn with when dying). Or maybe I got that wrong?

 

 

 

•   WEAPON

  1 golden revolver w/ 2 mags

•   SKIN

  soldier skin

•   MEDICAL

  1x painkillers, 2x bandages, 1x morphine

•   ITEMS

  2x MRE, 1x water bottle, 1x map, 1x compass, crossbow w/ 3 bolts

 

•   WEAPON

  1 revolver handgun w/ 2 mags

•   SKIN

  soldier skin

•   MEDICAL

  1x painkillers, 2x bandages, 1x morphine

•   ITEMS

  2x meat, 1x Mtn Dew, 1x map, 1x compass, crossbow w/ 3 bolts

 

 

 

 

Again, no Epoch items are listed.

 

Epoch items are things that the Epoch mod added to the game such as wooden walls, cinder walls, metal floors etc.

 

The stuff listed on the website as donor items for their epoch servers are loadouts ie: stuff you spawn in with when you die.

 

The donor items you've listed are for a different mod/server, ie: wasteland

[PetuniaEpoch]

Fair enuf.

 

Like I say, I'm glad epoch is getting sponsorship - just confused as to why non-epoch donor items are okay - but only if part of a loadout... seems a very odd thing.

 

Especially as the title of that thread is: "Donations are supposed to be given without return consideration."

 

 

Again, no Epoch items are listed.

 

Epoch items are things that the Epoch mod added to the game such as wooden walls, cinder walls, metal floors etc.

 

The stuff listed on the website as donor items for their epoch servers are loadouts ie: stuff you spawn in with when you die.

 

The donor items you've listed are for a different mod/server, ie: wasteland

[MatthewK]

I accept donations on my server, purely to help with running costs and I don't push the donation message either.  Donors get nothing in return but a thank you and good karma.  It's unfair to give perks to players who can afford it when you consider the number of players that might not for whatever reason be able to afford a donation.  I'd rather find the money myself and go a little broke if need be, than let my financially better off players eat bread in front of poor people.  At most people who donate get a briefcase of gold, one time and only if I've got it legit by selling some gear or finding it at a crash site etc.. Grumble grumble grumble !!!!

[Dreddex]

"as long as the items are from ArmA 2, ArmA 2 OA, or DayZ and not from DayZ Epoch mod."

 

Dayz Epoch is created using Arma 2, Arma 2 OA, and DayZ. So that statement just collapsed on itself.

[tylerjohnson]

I think its completely up to the server owner. No one is holding a gun to someones head to donate and there are plenty of servers out there if someone doesn't like the donation system. Wouldn't someone giving loadouts for donations allow someone to exploit more than anything else? Store loadout, kill self, store loadout kill self. Sell all items to vendor for gold.

[linuxx]

The post from Vbawol is concerning. I don't really see the difference between loadouts and item shops when it comes from the "unfair gameplay" perspective. Depending on the server owner, the loadout could comtain elite weapons. What makes that kosher over an "a la carte" item shop?

 

It seems as if loadouts made the "ok" list because BMRF does them, and vbawol doesn't want to burn any bridges.

 

And why the need for asking BI? Was it a derperate plea to find something that would break a TOS/EULA? Was the intention to institue a "tattle" sysem so that server owners would lose their rights to run the software?

 

I have spent countless hours creating an 100% automated microtransaction system for our Epoch servers. We don't have purchasable loadouts.  We run 3 Epoch servers because of the donations we receive. I don't intend to shut the microtransaction system down.

[linuxx]

+1

 

I think its completely up to the server owner. No one is holding a gun to someones head to donate and there are plenty of servers out there if someone doesn't like the donation system. Wouldn't someone giving loadouts for donations allow someone to exploit more than anything else? Store loadout, kill self, store loadout kill self. Sell all items to vendor for gold.

[FFDP]

I've seen a server owner make over 10k dollars in donations in less than four months. He's being investigated by the IRS for tax evasion now.

[Eegore]

  I think its important for us to remember that this is all new territory for BI and the DayZ community as a whole.  ARMA has had clans for years that accept donations but nothing on the scale of what DayZ has brought in, and definitely not as many anonymous players per server.

 

  It is simply an integrity move to talk to BI about accepting money from modded items that are inserted into their game.  Good move on Epoch for even recognizing this when so many other treat BI like they are %100 open source material.

 

  As for stating that "donation" items are to be BI only that's pretty cut an dry, but the impact and difference in player opinions will vary considering how each server I implements the guideline.  For instance a server can just hand out M1A1 TUSK Abrams tanks to "donors" and still be within the BI content only guidelines and also provide a ridiculous unbalance.

 

  As long as server owners don't start treating the game like they made it themselves and can alter and profit from it in any way they wish then things will work out.

[wokkelwakker]

I don't know about the other server owners, and people can't donate to me (yet),

 

But if my players could/would donate to me, i would definitely also donate epoch a fair share. Which i currently haven't done yet.

 

How much i would donate would of course depend on how many donations i would receive myself ;)....

[vbawol]

Keep in mind that our partnership with BMRF only goes as far as them providing a development server and nothing else. This helps me as I no longer have to pay for it and the only thing BMRF gets in return is credit for supporting us.

 

Donor loadouts have been around a lot longer than epoch so this is why they are acceptable. Obviously we do not condone giving OP loadouts, but that is up to the server admin. What did not exist in Arma before epoch is Item Malls and they have the known side effect of making a free mod Pay To Win.

[vbawol]

The point of making my stance on this public is because I feel the run away train of donation schemes surrounding epoch are beginning to threaten the mod. BI could easily step in at any time to tell us we cannot make the mod anymore just like they did with dayz bounty.

[linuxx]

It is simply an integrity move to talk to BI about accepting money from modded items that are inserted into their game.  Good move on Epoch for even recognizing this when so many other treat BI like they are %100 open source material.

  As long as server owners don't start treating the game like they made it themselves and can alter and profit from it in any way they wish then things will work out.

My microtransaction system doesn't provide the ownership of the model asset. It only provides a convenient method to achieve the item other than in-game methods.

 

This is the same as server hosting providers. Hosting providers are not selling you the operating system, just the convenient access to it.

 

 

 What did not exist in Arma before epoch is Item Malls and they have the known side effect of making a free mod Pay To Win.

There is one major difference between Epoch item shops and “pay-to-win”. You are not required to play alongside the players/servers that have item shops. For every one server that has an item shop, there are +20 that don’t.

 

Unlike when a microtransaction system is implemented in a AAA MMO/etc. the players don’t have the ability to play somewhere where microtransactions don’t exist.

[vbawol]

Vbawol, I'd like some clarification please.

 

As a server owner, we do accept donations, and we do reward people for those donations.

 

Here, you appear to condemn server owners offering gear for donations: http://dayzepoch.com/forum/index.php?/topic/3488-donations-are-supposed-to-be-given-without-return-consideration/ - THEN lock the thread so that nobody can discuss...

 

 

YET HERE you state that EPOCH itself is accepting sponsorship from a DayZ server host that HAS A SHOP for SELLING GEAR! - http://dayzepoch.com/forum/index.php?/topic/3535-new-development-server-sponsored-by-bmrf/

 

It's not like they offer small things either! up to $50 donations, and 'in-game gear' like:

 WEAPON
Golden AKS & revolver /w 3 mags
 
 SPECIAL
$500 on spawn, carry 2 primaries
 
 MEDICAL
2x medkit
 
 ITEMS
1x rangefinders, 3x can of food, 3x water bottle, 1x (full) jerrycan, skin pack

So which is it?

 

Are you really saying that us small guys that are trying to get donations to keep our servers going don't meet with your approval, whilst accepting sponsorship from a dayz server host that has a shop for in-game gear???

 

I REALLY like Epoch, seriously! best dayz mod there is, and you guys do a GREAT job! but I don't like server hosts being condemned for something that your sponsors also do, and that you then benefit from too!

 

Have I got something wrong here?

 

My own personal views are that I don't mind Donor slots as long as they allow plenty of free space on the server (WE use them! our 30 slot server is 30 + 5 donor slots, and if we get more donations we can upgrade hardware, and increase both free, and donor slots - to keep it fair).

 

I also don't mind donor loadouts, or BASIC goods being available via a real world store, so long as its not game changing

 

So I have no issue with what the new sponsors do!

 

I just have issue with EPOCH saying this shouldn't be done by us server hosts, and then accepting sponsorship from someone - meaning they are likely benefiting from something that they tell us shouldn't be done!

The thread was locked and posted in the announcements section as it is my public stance on the situation and not up for debate. We could have chosen a different/harder route to write up policy that would allow us to de-list servers from DZC that fail to comply.

Reserved slots, donor loadouts, and even donations just to get whitelsted on a server are acceptable I simply wish that server owners do not make Item malls or pay per item donation schemes.

[SkyDogs]

I know the server I frequent the most puts the excess monies after paying for the server back into the server's community, including a sizable donation to the Devs here and cash reward competitions played out in game. That is both ethical and clever, as it keeps people on their servers. Their foresight is such, that I can only see their community grow bigger and bigger because of their fair methods and clever community model. 

 

The manpower put into any mod by the Devs is nearly that of a full time job, and therefor should be rewarded, particularly if people are raking it in through donations off the backs of Devs, so a model needs to be built that's lawful and fair. Would mod Devs be allowed to license their creation for say £1/$1 per server license? 

[Firefly]

Would mod Devs be allowed to license their creation for say £1/$1 per server license? 

 

 

 

No they wouldn't. They would be profiting on content they did not create. While the various mods developers do create their own content such as the base building models and graphics in Epoch and the Origins houses they did not write the engine and neither did Rocket originally. The game is more than a few cobbled together scripts or edits (no offence) and I don't believe any of the mods have paid hundreds of thousands  to "rent" the game engine and its assets. 

 

This is why BI is thanked so often by the developers, they are allowing the mod community to use an engine for free as long as they don't try to make money from it. 

 

Even the mods asking for donations is sketchy at best legally although I am sure BI don't mind overly so. Origins method of allowing certain hosting companies to use their mod is also dubious. 

 

Personally should the person who runs a server ask for donations is no different to the mod developers asking for them. Servers cost money to run, and a lot of time to maintain, update and if the person chooses to modify. Most of us do it voluntarily because at some point we've played on someone elses server. 

 

As long as no illegal or nefarious practice is involved there shouldn't be an issue.

 

I could give someone an AS50 and ammo for money it doesn't make it Pay to Win, they still need the skill to use it. Giving a player ESP or player map coords for money would be so any loadout shouldn't really count. 

[Radiix]

I could give someone an AS50 and ammo for money it doesn't make it Pay to Win, they still need the skill to use it.

 

Tell me how much skill you need to kill a player with an As50. 1shot = 1Kill

 

Try to do the same with an M24 or CZ550

[Armifer]

Just an FYI, you gota check your local laws regarding cash prizes or prizes that have tangible value (ex: GFX card give away), both of which are taxable. Here in the USA, even if donations are set up as a not for profit donation or a nonprofit corporation or organization, records must be kept, and taxes paid. Events as the ones discussed in this thread could conflict with sweepstake laws and step on the toes of federal lottery law. Cash prizes awarded to anyone in the USA must have taxes paid on them, and they must be declared by the winner. For example, paypal will automatically share your social security info and report donations to the IRS if above $20,000 and 200 transactions annually. You can still be audited if you do not reach that threshold.It's a risk you take if you do not research your specific situation, as Uncle Sam may or may not care to spend the time and money to litigate, depending on how much money it is.

 

I am not an attorney, nor is this legal advice. This is my sharing of knowledge on the matter as a professional with experience, and to encourage individuals to research their own specific conditions to see what is exactly legal or not in their own state, or country.

[Firefly]

Tell me how much skill you need to kill a player with an As50. 1shot = 1Kill

I've killed plenty of people with one shot one kill. It's called aiming for the head. Most 7.62 hits, even to the body or limbs will result in a knock down or a break. Try using the SA-58's. Most encounters are under 400m. Most of my player kills or deaths result in under 200m. Usually with an assault rifle or on occasion a SVD which is good up to 750-800m.

 

A few days ago I killed someone, no shots, one kill. I hit him with a land rover while he was shooting me with a DMR. The AWM kills in one shot, but you still need to accurately range the target and know the weapon sight. 

 

A rifle that can hit out to 1km is pretty useless since in most cases, you don't have sight lines and hitting a moving target at the range means you have both bullet drop and the players actions to compensate for. 

 

Lastly I can pick up a weapon capable of good kills very quickly in the game from starting zone, so loadouts are really nothing fantastical. 

 

Just an FYI, you gota check your local laws regarding cash prizes or prizes that have tangible value

 

 

In the UK I am pretty sure it counts as taxable income for any donation received. Although if said person is in full time employment taxation is handled by PAYE so HM Revenue and Customs will not know about it, it would most likely require an additional self assessment to be filled out. Since I am self employed I could file any donations through on my yearly assessment. I could then add the costs of renting the server, any associated hardware, even my office chair (which I do anyway) and not pay income tax on said items. 

 

If I was VAT registered I could also claim back 20% VAT on the server rental etc. 

 

For the record, I have no problems with mod developers receiving donations, or server owners for that matter. I would only have issue if they forced the issue and then its not a donation but a charge. 

[chi]

I accept donations on my server, purely to help with running costs and I don't push the donation message either.  Donors get nothing in return but a thank you and good karma.  It's unfair to give perks to players who can afford it when you consider the number of players that might not for whatever reason be able to afford a donation.  I'd rather find the money myself and go a little broke if need be, than let my financially better off players eat bread in front of poor people.  At most people who donate get a briefcase of gold, one time and only if I've got it legit by selling some gear or finding it at a crash site etc.. Grumble grumble grumble !!!!

I would imagine that the people who cant afford to donate would still like to keep the servers up and running with the donations from others. I myself am one of those people who can't afford to donate much if any. I started a server because I was tired of slack admins on every server I played on, and our community grew from their. The size it is now; I couldn't afford to keep it up myself. And eating in front of people? I would consider custom loadouts a "pay to win" option and we don't allow them on our servers since everyone who can't donate would lose a fight on the coast.

 

Also, ATLEAST once per week we give away all types of items from our donation shop to anyone who wins events. People on our servers are all happy, even people who don't donate. We don't profit anything from donations. We only use the donations to pay for our servers and expand our community. We also give away points for things on our website for everyone to have and to trade to acquire items from our donation shop, as well as give points away in game. We keep it fair for everyone and profit nothing. We only want to see Epoch grow.

 

I respect everyone's views here, just saying. I understand that this is your creation, but all in all it is a mod of arma and dayz, yet those items are ok?

 

 

BTW. Great job to the EPOCH team, no matter your views on the subject.

 

Also, we give people the option to buy the perks from the donation store with in game briefcases. ;-)

[gatekeeper8]

i personally don't think you should be able to donate for vehicles or weapons or any thing that gives u an unfair advantage .  However i don't see a problem if the donation process simply rewards you with things like building materials for a base or a really nice back pack or something like that. As donations are a loop hole for players to make money off of BI's game without infringing on any copyright laws i think as long as you don't offer too much or too little or to powerful for an unreasonable amount of money as a reward for the people who are helping you pay to host your servers you should not get in trouble for it