Discussion about coming 1.0.2.4 update

[Mercules]

Vehicles are just like guns now in that you will have to loot or buy ammo for them. Unmentioned in the changelog is that all ammo box types now spawn as loot. 

 

Except they are nothing like guns. With guns if I use a partial clip I can then take the clip and put it in storage and later take it out and put it back into the gun. With vehicles I have to load the vehicle up with ammo but then can not remove the ammo from the vehicle. Upon a server restart all of my gun ammo clips remain. With a vehicle's guns the ammo will now vanish every time the server restarts. Since some people do restarts are many as 4-8 times a day it gets a bit expansive to arm a vehicle. Do you really want to drive around and wait until you encounter resistance before you load your ammo so you don't waste a reload without the need to fire that day? Would it be preferable to just throw money or rare spawns down the drain just in case you do need to fire from the vehicle? 

 

I am all for vehicles not getting free ammo refills but resetting to 0 is a bad move. Players won't bother to loot up a reload if it is just going to vanish the next time the server resets. 

[2Bravo]

I welcome the changes in this patch, looks like some good ones. If the backpack deletion one stops dupers in their tracks, I'm all for it - just another thing to add to the checklist before logging off.

 

 

So you have never been kicked for a random create vech restriction/BSOD/ARMA crash/signature check time out/ping/internet DC?

 

Guess what with this if it happens near a player all your gear is gone.

 

2Bravo

[Mercules]

Here is a great one from last week. My friend was working in another city for the week and connected from his hotel room. Well, he had left his computer set up and connected from the day before and forgot the hotel makes you click on a link every 24 hours to keep your connection. Guess who was flying the helicopter... He rather suddenly lost connection and to top it all off the helicopter just vanished around me. I couldn't even hit Eject. I was able to retrace our route and find my body... but if it had deleted all my gear from his sudden disconnection 3 meters from me, I may have been rather upset. 

That is something that will be turned off on my server till they find a better solution for the dupe(that I apparently don't know about).

[nickt629]

Here is a great one from last week. My friend was working in another city for the week and connected from his hotel room. Well, he had left his computer set up and connected from the day before and forgot the hotel makes you click on a link every 24 hours to keep your connection. Guess who was flying the helicopter... He rather suddenly lost connection and to top it all off the helicopter just vanished around me. I couldn't even hit Eject. I was able to retrace our route and find my body... but if it had deleted all my gear from his sudden disconnection 3 meters from me, I may have been rather upset. 

That is something that will be turned off on my server till they find a better solution for the dupe(that I apparently don't know about).

i second that

 

Except they are nothing like guns. With guns if I use a partial clip I can then take the clip and put it in storage and later take it out and put it back into the gun. With vehicles I have to load the vehicle up with ammo but then can not remove the ammo from the vehicle. Upon a server restart all of my gun ammo clips remain. With a vehicle's guns the ammo will now vanish every time the server restarts. Since some people do restarts are many as 4-8 times a day it gets a bit expansive to arm a vehicle. Do you really want to drive around and wait until you encounter resistance before you load your ammo so you don't waste a reload without the need to fire that day? Would it be preferable to just throw money or rare spawns down the drain just in case you do need to fire from the vehicle? 

 

I am all for vehicles not getting free ammo refills but resetting to 0 is a bad move. Players won't bother to loot up a reload if it is just going to vanish the next time the server resets. 

and definitely this!

[ekroemer]

Come on people, don't complain so much about the changes to vehicle ammo.

 

Before it was free lunch and ridiculously favouring those kiddies who don't sow but only want to reap.

 

Now you have to invest some loot time / gold in it, and some brain: noone forces you to add more than one clip at a time to your vehicle. Reload the car only when you expect to expend the ammo, keep the spares in your inventory. Should be an educational exercise in tactics.

 

On our server the players use armed vehicles mainly for grieving civilian cars, helis and infantry. Nobody 'needs to fire from the vehicle', everybody wants.

 

As for 'Players won't bother to loot up a reload', in my experience those favouring armed vehicles are not the looting types, anyway, except you mean looting the bodies of their victims.

 

Any admin has the possibility to set the prices for the ammo, so there you have the parameter you can twiddle with if you really 'need' vehicle ammo, e.g. against AI.

[Axle]

Come on people, don't complain so much about the changes to vehicle ammo.

 

Before it was free lunch and ridiculously favouring those kiddies who don't sow but only want to reap.

 

Now you have to invest some loot time / gold in it, and some brain: noone forces you to add more than one clip at a time to your vehicle. Reload the car only when you expect to expend the ammo, keep the spares in your inventory. Should be an educational exercise in tactics.

 

On our server the players use armed vehicles mainly for grieving civilian cars, helis and infantry. Nobody 'needs to fire from the vehicle', everybody wants.

 

As for 'Players won't bother to loot up a reload', in my experience those favouring armed vehicles are not the looting types, anyway, except you mean looting the bodies of their victims.

 

Any admin has the possibility to set the prices for the ammo, so there you have the parameter you can twiddle with if you really 'need' vehicle ammo, e.g. against AI.

 

+1 to this post.

 

I wish my character restocked his ammo after a restart.... Then I could just sit in my outhouse I built and snipe Bambi's on the coast.

[Cal-Dirty Weasel]

Slowly warming to the ammo change the longer I consider it. It would make it harder on players, but I don't want an easy server. 

[Mercules]

+1 to this post.

 

I wish my character restocked his ammo after a restart.... Then I could just sit in my outhouse I built and snipe Bambi's on the coast.

 

You do in this mod. Just switch clips before it runs dry and tuck it into your backpack. After a server restart your clip is magically filled to the brim.

 

 

Basically you just switched it from, "We can dump all these rounds into someone else's base/vehicle because after a server restart they will be back." to "We might as well dump all these rounds into someone else's base/vehicle because after a server restart they will be gone." At least with the first one someone might not care enough to be a douche, with the second they have already put effort into finding/buying the ammo so they will want to use it up somehow.

 

I must admit though, it does make the unarmed vehicles more attractive, but that could be done simply by eliminating armed vehicles. I understand right now they are kind of a "have vrs have not" advantage but you will simply be boosting that a bit further because now to fight back people will need to find an armed vehicle, fix it up, gas it up, and find/buy ammo before they are a "have". Really, if you don't want people to expend all that ammo... don't put armed vehicles into the mod.

[fireplace]

Will it be easy to edit out the no ammo for vehicles? If not, I'm guessing we could just add ammo using "_object addMagazine "ammo_classname";" in server_monitor.sqf? Or maybe setup some SUV's which respawn with ammo every restart.

 

I run a server with very hard A.I, so need to find a workaround otherwise my players are just gonna be moaning lol

[2Bravo]

No one cares about the vech spawning without ammo, its the deletion of ammo I paid for/found every restart that no one likes.

 

2Bravo

[Mercules]

No one cares about the vech spawning without ammo, its the deletion of ammo I paid for/found every restart that no one likes.

 

2Bravo

 

Yep... I don't have to scavenge new clips for my firearm every server reset, I don't lose the clip in the gun every reset. They need to find a better way to track ammo in vehicles not just literally "all or none" at reboot. 

[Snowmobil]

What about putting the ammo in the vehicles inventory, shortly before a restart?

[Lanmanfm]

No scaffolding :(

[marsvb]

All the trouble to build lockable houses and garages and you give the kids the tools to boost a car ?

 

Now if some sad sack manages to para into a walled base, uses his kit to break into a truck with a nade launcher on it and nukes the place from the inside out while your at work, yay !

 

I am all for no ammo in the trucks when you find or buy them but why unload the ammo for a server restart ?  I go and find or buy the ammo to load the truck why cant it stay in for a restart ?

What is the goal of this measure ?

[nickt629]

Slowly warming to the ammo change the longer I consider it. It would make it harder on players, but I don't want an easy server.

 

Dont get me wrong im not against the ammo change and i dont think it should be so easily obtained as it is now. but i do think that if u go through the trouble to obtain it that it should not "poof" out of the vehicle on a server reset it should stay at its current magazine state. am i wrong? none of your other belongings/ammo poof on restart so why should your vehicles? and again this is just my personal opinion so take it at face value. but not all servers have problems with people griefing and blowing up other peoples stuff so its kind of detrimental to those types of servers.

 

basically what im getting at is there should be a middle ground between the two extremes.

[nickt629]

Will it be easy to edit out the no ammo for vehicles? If not, I'm guessing we could just add ammo using "_object addMagazine "ammo_classname";" in server_monitor.sqf? Or maybe setup some SUV's which respawn with ammo every restart.

 

I run a server with very hard A.I, so need to find a workaround otherwise my players are just gonna be moaning lol

 

i would like to know the answer to this/if it would be possible also

[2Bravo]

What about putting the ammo in the vehicles inventory, shortly before a restart?

 

And where exactly is the unload option located? ;)

 

See the issue?

 

2Bravo

[Snowmobil]

And where exactly is the unload option located? ;)

 

See the issue?

 

2Bravo

 

I meant server-side.

[2Bravo]

I meant server-side.

 

That would be fine

 

2Bravo

[Shizweak]

So you have never been kicked for a random create vech restriction/BSOD/ARMA crash/signature check time out/ping/internet DC?

 

Guess what with this if it happens near a player all your gear is gone.

 

2Bravo

 

I would rather sort out the off chance someone gets kicked for a script restriction, rather than spend my days sifting through logs looking for dupers.

 

I also remove players that constantly crash/disconnect/signature check timeout - they are usually the sort of player who can't be bothered researching their issues and sorting them out. If a player has a flakey internet connection or a unstable PC, that is their problem - not mine.

 

All the trouble to build lockable houses and garages and you give the kids the tools to boost a car ?

 

Now if some sad sack manages to para into a walled base, uses his kit to break into a truck with a nade launcher on it and nukes the place from the inside out while your at work, yay !

 

They've already said they will be rare, and have a high chance of failure. Not to mention, if someone goes to the effort to get an heli/plane, jump starter and vehicle ammo for your specific vehicle - parachutes into your (roofless and insecure) base, then gets lucky enough to unlock the vehicle and reload it - then good for them. It's better than a new spawner jumping in the server, finding a random spawn SOV/GPK and pummelling every base in the server.

 

With 1.0.2.4 I might actually start storing unlocked GPK's/SOV's in my base again.

 

 

What about putting the ammo in the vehicles inventory, shortly before a restart?

 

I like the idea, the only problem I see with this - is the mod generally doesn't know when the server is going to restart. I think making it a manual option on the vehicle is the best scenario in this case - makes the player responsible, rather than the server.

[marsvb]

shizweak you have your opinions as do all the folks on the board, my 2 questions were rather simple.  Why add more griefing tools to the mod, ie lockpicks or dump the ammo from weapon systems that have been filled at server restart ? 

 

You assume its possible to para into my base, wont happen but players are very good at finding ways to clip into bases, an example would be the need to remove the hop beside mod building panels. There are others.  Storing unlocked cars at my camp does not happen armed or not but I am looking at the mod from the new guys view, not the roofed base players.

We have a dupe problem, a player manages to dupe his lockpick tool a dozen times and goes griefing, great fun for him, not so much for the targets.  I can live with the ammo deal, no choice buy the looks, I am concerned about a tool to defeat one of the bright spots of the mod. And they will end up in the trader lists  :}

 

Next patch after rolls out the garage door pick I assume ?

[Shizweak]

shizweak you have your opinions as do all the folks on the board, my 2 questions were rather simple.  Why add more griefing tools to the mod, ie lockpicks or dump the ammo from weapon systems that have been filled at server restart ? 

 

You assume its possible to para into my base, wont happen but players are very good at finding ways to clip into bases, an example would be the need to remove the hop beside mod building panels. There are others.  Storing unlocked cars at my camp does not happen armed or not but I am looking at the mod from the new guys view, not the roofed base players.

We have a dupe problem, a player manages to dupe his lockpick tool a dozen times and goes griefing, great fun for him, not so much for the targets.  I can live with the ammo deal, no choice buy the looks, I am concerned about a tool to defeat one of the bright spots of the mod. And they will end up in the trader lists  :}

 

Next patch after rolls out the garage door pick I assume ?

 

I'm not sure why you see them as griefing tools, when it has already been stated that the "jump starter" will be rare, and have a high chance of failure. It's the servers choice to add them to the trader, I know I certainly won't be - just like lockboxes, combo locks and sledge hammers - they are good incentives for players to get out and about in the terrain and get into some trouble.

 

In regards to base glitching, this is something that's obviously not easily solved - I have a rule on my server, which is essentially 24 hour ban for glitching through walls, then a permanent ban for a second offence. If someone claims they cracked the door code, both parties are required to email an admin with the door codes, if they match (e.g. they cracked it), we do nothing - otherwise enforce with bans for unethical play. However, most players have now setup double doors, double walls and great security around their base - the only way in is brute forcing locks, or blowing down walls - if you try to glitch into these sort of bases, you get stuck between a cavity and spend a few hours dying of starvation.

 

I also didn't assume someone could para into your base, I was just responding to the scenario you posted in your previous post - if someone is willing to leave holes in their base, that is their problem - I was simply stating that if someone puts in the effort to para into a base, with vehicle ammo and a jump starter ready to go, they are probably a half decent player, not a griefer.

 

In regards to the "ammo deal", you do have a choice (that is, if you run your own server) - the devs already stated there will be variables to enable/disable the feature if you wish. And I'm sure there will be the ability to remove the ammo from a vehicle before a restart (at some point), it's only logical.

 

I also doubt there will be door lock picks, they are combination locks, you can't "pick" a combination lock.

 

In the end, I think we just have different views of what griefing is - I run a server with zero rules (apart from no unethical play, e.g. hacking, glitching, duping, combat logging), so you can destroy bases, blow up vehicles, kill people in trading camps (although we do have Klen as a "safe zone"), take over someone else's base if they haven't put down a plot pole or put combo locks on their door. We cater for banditry and heroism, and the additions of patch 1.0.2.4 are only going to make things more interesting in my opinion.

[ekroemer]

Some people have asked why the ammo remaining in an armed vehicle is reset at server restart (before the new patch to full, after, as option, to zero).

 

While I do not definitely know the answer, I think a good guess is that there is simply no dedicted location in the database to store this info. While the server runs, the (I guess) client keeps track of the ammo, just as it does with the contents of backpacks you place into containers (gear/safe).

 

At restart that information is simply lost: ammo reset to default, backpack contents reset to default (empty), magazines in the worn backpack reset to default (full).

 

So all the Epoch developers do is to allow changes to this default value but they cannot expand the Arma mechanics of not storing the actual information.

 

As I stated: just a guess.

 

 

As for the assumption that armed vehicles are now made worthless (aside from the fact that the change is optional):

 

Among our players it is a common impression that the unarmed (military) vehicles do not offer the same protection as the armed ones, notably in the Humvee variants. While these all have the same 'armor rating' there is the opinion that there are differences in durability of tires, protection given by windows, etc.

(I'm treading carefully here because I don't know anything about Arma internals when it comes to calculation of damage.)

[Zedder]

 

 

I would rather sort out the off chance someone gets kicked for a script restriction, rather than spend my days sifting through logs looking for dupers.

 

I also remove players that constantly crash/disconnect/signature check timeout - they are usually the sort of player who can't be bothered researching their issues and sorting them out. If a player has a flakey internet connection or a unstable PC, that is their problem - not mine.

 

 

 

That would be me right Shiz?

[marsvb]

This is the feedback section so if I don't air this now its my fault, so I am posting to ask the devs for whys.  One of the core hooks for this mod is the ability with some effort to add cars and camps, houses that can be locked and have a very good chance to survive while I am not logged in.

 

With the addition of a tool that will defeat car locks I see a slippery slope.  I assume that house and garage tools are planned down the road ? 

 

If I look at this from the dev standpoint to understand why its been added I can only guess but are you wanting players to interact with the zeds more ?  Now if server admins add these to the lists at traders as well as any added scripts or super admin bases they are off the path of the mod anyway and just playing a wasteland game with traders.

I play and build on non scripted servers with no changes to the mod and have watched the updates slowly grow the mod into a great experience . 

 

Car boosting bandits are a pain but a locked building takes care of that and does motivate players to build them, causing more looting and tree cutting. 

 

The ammo removal seems to be a reaction to another problem in that johnny bandit cant find a armed 40mil hummer and stomp a base to dust in the first hour of gameplay, fair enough.