Base Building - destructible or not

[Firefly]

I know what you are thinking, many posts all saying the same thing. This is simply to collect everyones thoughts in one place, offer dev feedback and for devs to discuss their vision of what is available now and what is planned for. 

 

I would like to start by saying, nearly every building on the map in standard DayZ can be destroyed. Very little in the towns and cities can not actually be destroyed. I have pretty much wiped out Stary before while balance testing vehicles and weapons and have spent hours testing what works and doesn't. 

 

My opinion is thus:

 

• Allow a setting that admins can control the building health, chances of removal etc. This could be set at standard Epoch values, made weaker or made stronger. 
• I don't want an all in one setting where everything falls over every time the wind blows, or can survive a MOAB. 

I believe the above satisfies everything and should satisfy everyone. It is also easily configured at a later date when the Epoch base building is more advanced in terms of content. 

 

A break down of the current pros and cons of what is available is also worthwhile so here goes, this is more just to show what is out there:

 

Basebuilding 1.2 with improvements:

 

Good:

• A large selection of available building and fortification types that can be added too or subtracted from by admins relatively easily
• All building types are configurable, what is required to build them or remove them both in terms of tools and time. With configurable chances of failure for removal. 
• Lockable gates using keycodes that can be made to fill any sized gap within the max communication distance. The smallest being large enough to drive a Ural through
• Keycodes can be changed to suit user
• Easy UI allows for quick mat requirements and building options browsing. 
• Placing system allows to accurately show where the item is going with the reference being in front of the player model
• Easy admin remove mode
• No limit on size of base
• Clean up requires replacing of items within time limit, if no interaction server automatically will delete placed items

Bad:

• Building models are counted as solid when in placing mode, resulting in player death
• Buildings can sometimes randomly shift on completion killing the builder
• Placement system on larger or longer objects difficult without help as object orientation can sometimes shift unexpectedly
• Can be abused by walking out, although some versions have a fix in place
• Items can shift after restart, to correct clipping. walls will randomly split allowing access to your base
• Can be a complete pain to install correctly
• To avoid clean up users have to replace structures which can be very time consuming

 

Epoch basebuilding 1.0.2.1:

 

Good:

• True custom buildings using the modular system
• Multiple buildings with storage option great for storing non-essential items without filling up safes
• Lockable gates and doors using in-game loot drops
• Mat packs reduce time to create something by large amount
• Improved placement system over previous Epoch versions
• Integration of refueling elements well done
• Integrated within Epoch no messing about with custom code
• Maintenance helps server cleanup

Bad:

 

• All player built items easy to remove, with no option to change requirements. Current modular system is relatively weak compared to wooden structures already in game
• Lockable doors not viable with current system since overall structure is weak. 
• Mat requirements quite high for modules so balance between risk and reward not viable
• Long term prospects of wooden structures, or considering removal of items, is limited. 
• Maintenance on weak structures not worth it
• Doesn't appear to be any notification or ingame message of required maintenance
• Ingame mat requirements don't work very well meaning players have to alt-tab all the time to check the wiki

 

Base building experience as a player and an admin:

 

Most players and a significant number of admins prefer Daimyos base building, it offers ease of use, reliability and a configuration to suit what the admin wants and what the players want. In past cases most players would only use the standard Epoch buildings in concert with the base building mod. Since base building mod offers no storage facilities. I played in a server without the base building mod and very few players used the Epoch system since buildings would be gone when they next played. When the base building mod was implemented all players started building. The servers with the highest populations, the highest consistent populations, are running the base building mod. 

 

In future I see players wanting both the modular system and the base building mod using the better fortifications and placement of the base building mod to protect their modular buildings. People may like the modular system now because it is new, but players are pretty fickle about things like this. 

[Achmed]

The base building is still a work in progress.... give them time to finish it before you judge

[Firefly]

Thank you for the reply but that is not the point. It is all a work in progress, DayZ is still a work in progress. Standalone is a never finishing work in progress. 

 

It is fairly obvious where they are going with the system they have started with 1.0.2. Wooden modular structure, breeze block modular structure in ever increasing strength of materials etc etc. That is fine and when fully implemented will no doubt work well. But for those of us who actually want to attract players and keep them we really need the structures to be configurable to work with the addons players expect. 

[ToejaM]

The time it takes to build one wall panel, compared to the time it takes to remove it is the major issue. Yes, realism would dictate it should be destructible but when safes are indestructible already, I think I'd probably just make a base out of safes instead. As mentioned in another thread, people are able to carry chopper main rotors in their bags, lump around a lada engine and use it on a chopper. Able to accurately fire 50cal sniper rifles, throw grenades and even fire standard issue military rifles like professionals. Theres no weapon maintenance, no stoppages or dud rounds.

 

I also don't know if you guys don't know this but... zombies aren't real either. Could very easily go on and on about realism but its a game and there are certain lines where you have to draw the line on realism for purposes of enjoyment.

 

I like the modular system but its a short term option and not something people will bother to do more than once. With the wooden structures you can literally drive through them with no resistance in a vodnik and they fall over with no damage to the vodnik. It should take ages to get a base together, it should take a lot of work to do it but it should take an equal amount of effort to destroy it.

The cinderwalls are good but it takes three satchels to take them out. Which means an SOV grenade launcher offroader will be able to dominate bases. Every restart the vehicle is rearmed, might take the vehicle a few restarts but it'd take a days worth of work to ruin weeks worth of work from many different groups. As of yet there is no cinder roof.

The health on the objects needs to be much, much higher. To a point where it should take a lot of force to destroy it, practically wiping out a groups supplies in the process. It should be an end game achievement that is rare to accomplish.

 

Duping is a huge issue in DayZ, its so easy to do so you could make satchels as rare as you like but when one is found, you can garauntee there will be loads afterwards. Its impossible to prove duping without watching them do it as with anything rare, there are instances where lots can be found at once and you don't want to ban/accuse innocent players. Perhaps a limit can be set on the amount of satchel charges allowed in a players inventory or safe/tent/area? Which means if it requires X amount of explosive, it means it would require a team of people to be destructive.

 

I do think there should be some way of removing bases by players but it shouldnt be easy, if its easy.. people won't bother to make the bases as above, they know when they login next itll be gone.

 

@matthewjknott

 

Many servers run the BB1.2 mod because it works, and this is many servers across ALL DayZ mods. Its popular because it works and its customisable to the servers preferences. We have experience from base building already and I ran the BB1.2 mod destructible to begin with but people refused to build bases as they were so easy to destroy. It just doesn't work when the bases take so long to build, the modular system will be and is no different as destructible bases is a mechanic and not a new feature.

 

I like Firefly's suggestion of giving the option to server owners to run destroyable bases or not through a config and those who want bases to be destroyed can allow it, those who want bases to be destroyed but with a load of HP can allow it and those who dont want bases destroyable can turn it off.

 

Let the server owners and communities run it how they want, might as well make it a setting like all the other settings as eventually people will find a way to mod it regardless.

[Firefly]

Just a little update, I just did a reasonably comprehensive weapons test using some of my trusty tools, namely a BTR-60 and a HMMWV with Mk19. The reason being many people may think you can fire a burst off and lay waste to someones building.

 

Generally wooden walls were quite weak, not thick enough to stop anything which is to be expected. They could be driven over with the worst car in terms of durability in DayZ with no damage. 

 

Stronger wooden structures took 105 14.5x114mm rounds to down (KPVT) and 374 7.62x54 (PKT). Grenade wise it was around about 21. Stronger structures include ones with lockable doors. 

 

A car was not able to run through one nor the MTVR without some damage. 

 

Concrete walls couldn't be driven through (MTVR) and took 177 rounds from the KPVT. Far too many grenades but did finally succomb to 3 satchel charges. 

 

Bearing in mind the test vehicle I used was the BTR-60 with the KPVT which has twice the energy of an M2. 

 

Weapons wise I would say the structures are fine. The fact a car (SkodaBlue) was able to drive through large wooden walls without damage at low speed was a little alarming. Perhap an upgrade to buttress the walls could be implemented. I've not had a chance for someone to test removing them yet. This is probably the biggest worry since previous Epoch buildables were ridiculously easy to remove.