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BI speaks out on p2w and donation shops!


Axle

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Sequisha has already stated that you need Epoch's permission if you are running Epoch, regardless of what items you're selling. People will be arguing the toss, and a big war of words will follow, while they run their shops regardless. 

 

It's going to be interesting, and I can't wait for the meaty threads on here, as I do like to stick my nose in, even though I have absolutely no intention on running, or being involved (staff) with, a community.

 

There will only be one end result, and it is pretty obvious what it'll be, so, in my opinion, you're best using Occam's razor to reach it. 

 

Yes you do need their permission, but what I was getting at is everyone (other than the devs) keep posting that Epoch has basically said they will never allow it, when in reality they have posted that they are waiting for better clarification and awaiting monetization requests.

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Yes you do need their permission, but what I was getting at is everyone (other than the devs) keep posting that Epoch has basically said they will never allow it, when in reality they have posted that they are waiting for better clarification and awaiting monetization requests.

 

Yes, you're right, but it's hardly been made clear. They should be proactive, conclude a definitive road map, and get their PR department on the job.   :lol:  :D  :P  ;)  ;)  ;)

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Yes, you're right, but it's hardly been made clear. They should be proactive, conclude a definitive road map, and get their PR department on the job.   :lol:  :D  :P  ;)  ;)  ;)

 

 

The Epoch terms on this have hardly been made clear because BIS haven't made anything clear on this issue, other than an announcement on the BIS Forums about it.

There are no definitive terms written by BIS on this topic, only a set of very vague guidelines and until those guidelines are further defined and set in stone with updated and re-issued EULA's to every owner of Arma3 then this issue is a mute point and people will only be speculating on every part of this until such a time.

 

Unless BIS seriously re-think this and go about it in the correct way it's going to tear the modding scene apart - while server operators are allowed to "make money" from thier servers - content creators aren't allowed any return on the addons these servers use.

 

Would you continue to create and release content openly knowing people are making profit from your hard work?  I know I sure as hell wouldn't.

 

Money and power corrupt - From the very concept of MANW and now onto monetisation of servers - BIS are pushing the community in a direction nobody expected it to be heading towards - Paywalls and P2W.

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The Epoch terms on this have hardly been made clear because BIS haven't made anything clear on this issue, other than an announcement on the BIS Forums about it.

There are no definitive terms written by BIS on this topic, only a set of very vague guidelines and until those guidelines are further defined and set in stone with updated and re-issued EULA's to every owner of Arma3 then this issue is a mute point and people will only be speculating on every part of this until such a time.

 

Unless BIS seriously re-think this and go about it in the correct way it's going to tear the modding scene apart - while server operators are allowed to "make money" from thier servers - content creators aren't allowed any return on the addons these servers use.

 

 

 

Money and power corrupt - From the very concept of MANW and now onto monetisation of servers - BIS are pushing the community in a direction nobody expected it to be heading towards - Paywalls and P2W.

 

 

I agree completely. Very unrealistic of me to expect any sort of road-map so soon after the announcement.  

 

 

 

Would you continue to create and release content openly knowing people are making profit from your hard work?  I know I sure as hell wouldn't.

 

Absolutely not. That's why I'm posting in favour of the devs allowing the shops, but on condition they get commission. In my own sort of way, I've been trying to point out that if they don't give the permission, the servers owners will open a store anyway. 

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Absolutely not. That's why I'm posting in favour of the devs allowing the shops, but on condition they get commission. In my own sort of way, I've been trying to point out that if they don't give the permission, the servers owners will open a store anyway. 

Uro1's right about that, it's too early to stake any concrete claims as it's been kind of vague to begin with.

Also Skydogs, I recall reading that split profit sharing was not something they would be approving of; as far as I'm aware reading through that thread & official responses.

 

Everyone should just be patient until more clarity comes from BI, which I imagine it will; whether it be official statements or communities made an example of.

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Uro1's right about that, it's too early to stake any concrete claims as it's been kind of vague to begin with.

Also Skydogs, I recall reading that split profit sharing was not something they would be approving of; as far as I'm aware reading through that thread & official responses.

Everyone should just be patient until more clarity comes from BI, which I imagine it will; whether it be official statements or communities made an example of.

Fair enough.

You do recognise I'm in support of you guys benefiting from this new rule, right?

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False, P2W servers have higher population because there's 2 motivations to running an epoch server: 1) For money 2) Legitimate cheating as an admin

The servers that are there to collect money do not have Admin abuse, do not have cheating admins... 99% of the small community servers do. I've played on CCG for almost a year, the reason i hear repeatedly why people want to play there is this: Admins do not interfere with gameplay, there are no ACTIVE admins on the servers (no-one that cheats, no-one that spawns in shit to their clan, no-one to bend the rules to their favor)... Even though these servers hate CCG, sorry to say but they have the BEST epoch experience i've ever had. I've NEVER needed to worry about admin abuse, admin cheating, rules changing.

Sure there might be like 3 servers out there where the admins dont bend the rules, cheat or do shit for their clan... but I'm done taking my chances with those shitty servers, if this "CCG P2W" gets me to enjoy the game to 100% without having to worry about cheating cunts, let them monetize.,

I'm sorry that you've had negative experiences in the past with cheating admins. I agree that it is a problem and I also agree that a lot of admins want their own servers for dishonest reasons. However there are many smaller communities out there, such as my own, who want to run their own server to avoid the same issues as you have experienced. Before we ran Epoch servers we played on various community servers and were plagued by cheating admins or admins who were never around to take out the trash. So we decided to run our own and I dove in and learned how to do it. We brought to the table our admin experience from our years of running CoD and BF servers where we focused on integrity and sportsmanship. Our focus in running a server is so that we have a place to call our own and to provide a place for the community where our players can be assured that the playing field is as fair as possible for everyone. We are active in the server since we feel that's the best way for us to interact with our guests. We participate in raids with them, do AI missions with them and of course help them out when they experience random glitches. I don't see how an admin could possibly be effective simply by sitting in front of their PC watching Dart's chat console waiting for players to complain about a problem. That's not doing anything to build a community. That's just being a reactive police force, which I feel is very impersonal.

Having the power of an admin does bring great responsibility. I am keenly aware of how visible my admins are and how easy it is for reputations to become tarnished. I spend scores of hours every week working on the servers and I will be damned if I will let one of my admins ruin what we have worked so hard to build. Everyone is accountable, including myself, and we all review each other from time to time to make sure we are putting our best feet forward for the community. We love Epoch. We love our server. And we love interacting with the community. THAT is why we run servers. And there are many communities out there just like us.

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He's branded every server bar 3 full of bad admins/cheater/and so forth. You really don't have to pander to his rationale on how it is. ;) As idiotic as it sounds, it's not worth trying to validate yourself to what he believes is factually correct.

 

I know plenty servers small and large that are the complete opposite. But I'll bow down to his exstensive experiance, being on every single server thats been created and all.

 

[rolls eyes]

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I'm sorry that you've had negative experiences in the past with cheating admins. I agree that it is a problem and I also agree that a lot of admins want their own servers for dishonest reasons. However there are many smaller communities out there, such as my own, who want to run their own server to avoid the same issues as you have experienced. Before we ran Epoch servers we played on various community servers and were plagued by cheating admins or admins who were never around to take out the trash. So we decided to run our own and I dove in and learned how to do it. We brought to the table our admin experience from our years of running CoD and BF servers where we focused on integrity and sportsmanship. Our focus in running a server is so that we have a place to call our own and to provide a place for the community where our players can be assured that the playing field is as fair as possible for everyone. We are active in the server since we feel that's the best way for us to interact with our guests. We participate in raids with them, do AI missions with them and of course help them out when they experience random glitches. I don't see how an admin could possibly be effective simply by sitting in front of their PC watching Dart's chat console waiting for players to complain about a problem. That's not doing anything to build a community. That's just being a reactive police force, which I feel is very impersonal.

Having the power of an admin does bring great responsibility. I am keenly aware of how visible my admins are and how easy it is for reputations to become tarnished. I spend scores of hours every week working on the servers and I will be damned if I will let one of my admins ruin what we have worked so hard to build. Everyone is accountable, including myself, and we all review each other from time to time to make sure we are putting our best feet forward for the community. We love Epoch. We love our server. And we love interacting with the community. THAT is why we run servers. And there are many communities out there just like us.

 

This was the best server promotion I've ever seen. And i do not disagree with you, I know that there are communities that are legit... But i also acknowledge how hard it is to stay legit as an admin when you are under pressure... for example when you're losing to a base raid with all of your lockboxes open.

 

The purpose of the previous post was to say that a lot of people play on these "P2W" servers just because they are -guaranteed- to not have to deal with admin abuse, since there is no admins playing on the servers. It isn't too fun to invest 1000 hours on a server just to see the admin's start behaving badly when they're under pressure.

 

I know there's other communities like yours that are legit, for example the official Mell's house server or MGT.

 

P.S. played 3000 hours on these "P2W" servers without ever giving them a dime or buying any store product. I've never had a admin talk to me and tell me to stop what im doing, I've never had an admin teleport to me, never had an admin take away my plotpole. 

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He's branded every server bar 3 full of bad admins/cheater/and so forth. You really don't have to pander to his rationale on how it is. ;) As idiotic as it sounds, it's not worth trying to validate yourself to what he believes is factually correct.

 

I know plenty servers small and large that are the complete opposite. But I'll bow down to his exstensive experiance, being on every single server thats been created and all.

 

[rolls eyes]

 

Well, these are just my experiences on them. And i never claimed to have been on every server that is out there. 

 

But i can also take your path. I bow down to your extensive experience being an admin of an empty server [rolls eyes]

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Well, these are just my experiences on them. And i never claimed to have been on every server that is out there. 

 

But i can also take your path. I bow down to your extensive experience being an admin of an empty server [rolls eyes]

 

How's my server being empty have any bearing on your comments? Care to explain what running an empty server has to do with your comments about all, bar 3 servers being, and i paraphrase here "shit and full of cheating admins or hackers". You claimed such in your earleir post, so to make such a comment you would have to have played in all servers to make that call. Or it was just a completley garbage spout that reeked of idiocy.

 

So what we got here from this little debate is that you make stupid comments like Every servers full of cheating admins and hackers bar 3 (which is so full of fuck it makes my head hurt even thinking about it)

 

You generally make dick comments because you have had a few bad experiances so thus you blame every server as that way (bar 3).

 

You Have absolutley NO clue about what EVERY server, bar 3 are like, because you haven't played on Every server, like you surley must have to have made such a piece of crud comment about.

 

 

I'll tell you whats more realistic and probable.

 

There are loads of servers that have non cheating admins and hackers on that are small and large. You are just the type of fella that brands everything the same because you have had a shitty experiance on SOME servers.

 

Have a good day and try to not be so jaded because of a few bad experiances, because 100 people call you a mincer idiot, doesn't mean that the entire world is calling you a mincer idiot. But maybe in your case it might be true.

 

If you create a server full or not, you should be the one burdening the costs. It's nice for players to help donate to keep the power on. I'm a believer of you don't need to dangle a carrot in their face. Having a decent server with minimal interaction from admins and hacker free enviroment is reward in itself.

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BIS response to Sequisha on the BI monetization thread.

 

Originally Posted by Dwardenviewpost-right.png
 
those server monetizing rules cover our server package,
on server with community content you also need approval for all content from every involved community content authors,

 

 

For something like DayZ EPoch (ARMA 2), in the event if the Epoch team decided that monetization is ok the Epoch team would have to get agreement from all of the mods contributors including all of the DayZ content authors, 3rd party contributors like other model and mod makers whos content has been added to Epoch and ad-hoc contributors like myself and Raymix or remove the content. 

 

TBH I do not believe that would be practical to gett all the approvals required so do not expect Epochs content to be granted monetization rights by the Epoch team.

 

The same would be true if A3 Epoch accepted contributions to the code base or included others models etc.  The major grey area here would be over the A3 Epoch AH and whos code is being used (something for discussion elsewhere so please don't discuss here).

 

The big concern here though is that if a team may want the option for monetization in the future then they may be very careful with how much the community can contribute to avoid a spiderweb of approvals later down the line.  That is not likely to be a good thing for collaboration.

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The big concern here though is that if a team may want the option for monetization in the future then they may be very careful with how much the community can contribute to avoid a spiderweb of approvals later down the line.  That is not likely to be a good thing for collaboration.

 

 

It's a complete clusterfuck, but easily solved I reckon....Draw contracts, have a nominal fee/donation for the use of the independent mods, which includes permission to use without comeback. 

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How's my server being empty have any bearing on your comments? Care to explain what running an empty server has to do with your comments about all, bar 3 servers being, and i paraphrase here "shit and full of cheating admins or hackers". You claimed such in your earleir post, so to make such a comment you would have to have played in all servers to make that call. Or it was just a completley garbage spout that reeked of idiocy.

 

So what we got here from this little debate is that you make stupid comments like Every servers full of cheating admins and hackers bar 3 (which is so full of fuck it makes my head hurt even thinking about it)

 

You generally make dick comments because you have had a few bad experiances so thus you blame every server as that way (bar 3).

 

You Have absolutley NO clue about what EVERY server, bar 3 are like, because you haven't played on Every server, like you surley must have to have made such a piece of crud comment about.

 

 

I'll tell you whats more realistic and probable.

 

There are loads of servers that have non cheating admins and hackers on that are small and large. You are just the type of fella that brands everything the same because you have had a shitty experiance on SOME servers.

 

Have a good day and try to not be so jaded because of a few bad experiances, because 100 people call you a mincer idiot, doesn't mean that the entire world is calling you a mincer idiot. But maybe in your case it might be true.

 

If you create a server full or not, you should be the one burdening the costs. It's nice for players to help donate to keep the power on. I'm a believer of you don't need to dangle a carrot in their face. Having a decent server with minimal interaction from admins and hacker free enviroment is reward in itself.

 

 

Dude, most people write on forums like they would rant down the pub. Clearly you're absolutely right when taking his words literally, but a pound to a penny he wouldn't back up his written words with cash. He's broadly speaking, and in that context, he's not far wrong in my experience. 

 

Good luck with the servers, Bandit, it's clear you're pretty passionate about server owning.

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Dude, most people write on forums like they would rant down the pub. Clearly you're absolutely right when taking his words literally, but a pound to a penny he wouldn't back up his written words with cash. He's broadly speaking, and in that context, he's not far wrong in my experience. 

 

Good luck with the servers, Bandit, it's clear you're pretty passionate about server owning.

 

I just hate blind ignorance ;) My bad for taking his words litreally, i just assume when people make comments like that they have some form of backup to warrant it.

 

 

As for the topic. I'm agaisnt contracts and all that stuff, extra work is extra work, when not really needed. They have always stated they aren't doing this for the money. By then taking a slice and having contracts or whatever, they are sounding more like a commercial entete. I know they put lots of time and effort into this and it's great. But you will always just get people that don't give them a slice of the cut, continue to make bank by selling their digital products online and saying "FU" to everything. They will not do it legit, and it makes a mockery of the people that then have to give cuts of their donations to the epoch team. To coin your saying in for a penny in for a pound. If it goes down that route they will be mobbed down doing admin/Bill chasing/legal chasing work/ chasing cash, instead of doing their passion/hobby. which is making a mod.

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How's my server being empty have any bearing on your comments? Care to explain what running an empty server has to do with your comments about all, bar 3 servers being, and i paraphrase here "shit and full of cheating admins or hackers". You claimed such in your earleir post, so to make such a comment you would have to have played in all servers to make that call. Or it was just a completley garbage spout that reeked of idiocy.

 

So what we got here from this little debate is that you make stupid comments like Every servers full of cheating admins and hackers bar 3 (which is so full of fuck it makes my head hurt even thinking about it)

 

You generally make dick comments because you have had a few bad experiances so thus you blame every server as that way (bar 3).

 

You Have absolutley NO clue about what EVERY server, bar 3 are like, because you haven't played on Every server, like you surley must have to have made such a piece of crud comment about.

 

 

I'll tell you whats more realistic and probable.

 

There are loads of servers that have non cheating admins and hackers on that are small and large. You are just the type of fella that brands everything the same because you have had a shitty experiance on SOME servers.

 

Have a good day and try to not be so jaded because of a few bad experiances, because 100 people call you a mincer idiot, doesn't mean that the entire world is calling you a mincer idiot. But maybe in your case it might be true.

 

If you create a server full or not, you should be the one burdening the costs. It's nice for players to help donate to keep the power on. I'm a believer of you don't need to dangle a carrot in their face. Having a decent server with minimal interaction from admins and hacker free enviroment is reward in itself.

 

And this is by far the worst server advertisement i've ever seen. Take the chill pill.

 

Edit: this is in response to your next message, as i dont want to spam the thread with this kindergarden fight of yours. Why I call it bad advertising? There's 2 server admins, one responds to my message completely with calm and reasonable mind, another one gets butthurt and starts raging like a 8-year old who just got their candybar taken away from them. I'm sorry if i burst your bubble about Admin abuse, as obviously you never do such things since you seem to be a completely mature human being.

 

Now, please grow up and let people discuss more important matters than this pickering.

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Hows it advertising? It's a response to your complete fuckery of a post. Please enlighten me to its advertising prowess. The only advertising part of that post would be my signature, which currently is within the rules and within the non pay2win rules unlike some others that have had theirs deleted. Nice try though son.

 

Can i feed you more hay? Or do you want to crawl back into your cave you utter creature.

 

 

Level 99 avoidance achieved aye........................ [golfclap]

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I didn't read through all of the comments, I got lost in the sea of My Opinion Rules...... :wacko:  Apologies if its been discussed.

 

RE: This last phrase: " ... must not prevent anyone from accessing the content."

 

 

The way I read that, paid for indestructible bases are out.  If your base gets destroyed, it gets destroyed.  No automatic refurbish on a server restart.  Unless of course, the base that Joe Public built gets the same treatment. Big game changer...

 

Am I wrong? 

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Currently nothing to do with Epoch (A2 / A3) has permission to be sold or be provided as perks for donators.  This is true whether the items are available without paying or not.

 

Bases built using Epoch items are covered in the above statement.  The ability to make them indestructible is also included. 

 

Only BIS assets are covered by the new rules.  Everything else (models/objects, scripts, ingame mechanics (like currency) ) are only allowed for monetization with the express permission of the creator(s) (this, in the case of Epoch includes all the projects contributors and not just the Epoch dev team).

 

If any servers are not compliant, BIS have warned that they will investigate and take action (if found non-compliant) which could include legal and technical methods (no details on what they may be that I have yet seen).  BIS have also not stated how quickly they will investigate and going by historical evidence many are dubious as to whether they will actually do anything.

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Because it gives players that pay extra money an advantage over players that don't. ARMA 3 is expensive enough on it's own. Content wise they add little to nothing and if that was the thing that made them decide they should have gone open source alternatives that everyone can enjoy. I just don't get how they can be so against P2W, and then add P2W stuff in the mod. It just doesnt rhyme.

That's BI's doing, not the Epoch devs. The DLC is part of Arma, Im pretty sure Epoch devs wouldn't even be permitted to exclude it. But like previously stated, server administration can exclude that content from tables.

False, P2W servers have higher population because there's 2 motivations to running an epoch server: 1) For money 2) Legitimate cheating as an admin

The servers that are there to collect money do not have Admin abuse, do not have cheating admins... 99% of the small community servers do. I've played on CCG for almost a year, the reason i hear repeatedly why people want to play there is this: Admins do not interfere with gameplay, there are no ACTIVE admins on the servers (no-one that cheats, no-one that spawns in shit to their clan, no-one to bend the rules to their favor)... Even though these servers hate CCG, sorry to say but they have the BEST epoch experience i've ever had. I've NEVER needed to worry about admin abuse, admin cheating, rules changing.

Sure there might be like 3 servers out there where the admins dont bend the rules, cheat or do shit for their clan... but I'm done taking my chances with those shitty servers, if this "CCG P2W" gets me to enjoy the game to 100% without having to worry about cheating cunts, let them monetize.,

I agree mostly. There are servers out there ot have been *ahem* mine that aren't out to make money or cheat. However some of the best I've seen hand power over to moderators that abuse their powers behind the admins backs and just straight up lie about it when confronted. I just don't trust servers that have more than one or two admins.
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Well, these are just my experiences on them. And i never claimed to have been on every server that is out there. 

 

But i can also take your path. I bow down to your extensive experience being an admin of an empty server [rolls eyes]

 

I have the same experience like Xyz and most of the big groups i meet during all my day z years aswell. I would always choose a big com instead of another small server with anormous bending rules ( fun fact: we have a lawyer in our team and even he is tired of the endless discussions with so many admins).

 

Even while playing mostly on CCG i have never spend a single € in a ig shop for day z / epoch/ overpoch whatever. Still most of the time in the top 3 regarding basedimensions. I don't  see the p2w in a shop like that. Are you going to win a firefight only because you just purchased a cinderblock? You can loose everything in seconds. Safe open and you just get raided? Can you donate a antiraid? I don't think so. It is all about the fight between groups atm and no one can buy a advantage in a shop like ccg.

 

@All

The shops are p2shortcut. Nothing else. And please don't say me you can win the daily fights with a cinderwall more in your base. Are you even playing the game or is it just the pure hate in this thread?

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I emailed BI and have just received a response.  Kudos to BI for taking the time to respond to these sort of queries.

 

Note, these relate to only Bohemia Interactive assets and not any mod assetts (objects, models, scripts etc) as that is determined by the mod makers.

 

[Question]

Are the following definitions correct from a BIS point of view ?.

 

Donation: A transfer of something to the benefit of the recipient (usually money to help keep servers running in this case).

Shops (in-game or via websites etc): Places where people pay for in-game items.

 

[Response]

Agreed. Donation with counter value is a sale, not donation. Donation == no counter value.

 

[Question] - This one has already been sorted out with posts in the BI thread between me emailing and the response coming back.

If I write some code to allow the refilling of magazines (no new objects but purely sqf code) then if someone uses that code, do they need to request my permission before allowing monetization of their mod ?.

 

[Response]

Yes

 

[Question]

  If my code uses some generic scripts provided by another modder then does the mod team wanting to monetize need to get permission from myself and the other modder who provided the utility sqf scripts ?.  I am sure you can see where this is going… how far down the chain of contributors does a mod team need to go before they can be sure all required approvals are in ?.

 

[Response]

Depends on the license of generic script. Your are creating derivative works so you need to observe the license of the original work.

 

[Question]

The other concern with this is that if someone contributes a small addition to a number of mods and the mod teams later wanted to allow monetization then that contributor could hold the mod teams to ransom.

 

[Response]

If he did not allow it in the first place, then they need to either remove his work or get his permission.

 

[Question]

If there is disagreement on the creator of some code then how will this be handled ?.

[Response]

It will be handled on case by case basis.  It might be difficult, but if we are not sure we may just take the monetization permission away for both parties.

 

I did ask another question about selling items and their definition of in game advantage (ie. you can sell a car as long as the specs are the same as one that can be found or you cannot sell a car as buying is an advantage already).  The response seemed to contradict a post by BI on the thread so I have just replied and asked for confirmation.  Will post the results when a reponse is received.

 

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