BI speaks out on p2w and donation shops!

[DirtySanchez]

HAHA that's rich!

Everything here is in black and white and on top of it all, English.

It all boils down to human nature and our necessity to exploit any system to its fullest until it either falls apart or is abandoned. I did exceed my will for a little while and did try to apologize but have the best intentions since day 1 back in October. We are here to follow ya down this road where ever it may lead. (Hopefully top DOG, hint hint get to work!)

Well Devs thanks for the OP info and community for this lovely thread.

I know where this all stands here and after 4 months of looking through epoch and a3 code, im pretty sure cosmetic is too vague a term for us to try to think we know were this will go in terms of in game items.

The best I can think of would definitely fit into cosmetic items and it would include merely hood ornaments to the donator, not what people are expecting like from A2(where the shit flew off the handle IMHO, $100 building packs LOL)

Well again Good Luck to ALL SERVERS and LONG LIVE the EPOCH!

[Instill]

Does it really matter? It was created by the Epoch devs.

 

You guys are making it harder then it actually is. Let me walk you through it:

 

"I want to sell Arma 3 content created by Bohemia Interactve!"  Go to this link: http://www.bistudio.com/monetization

 

"I want to sell Epoch content created by the devs at Epochmod.com!"  Go to this link: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-nd/4.0/

Perfect ^

I definitely dont want to see a lot servers doing things only for the money - I can see if this happens the majority of the community will be sour.

We all love the mod and want to see it grow, with this BI release I think that if its approached by the Epoch devs in a good way then it can be a good thing. 

 

Maybe set guidelines for anyone playing Epoch. If we remember from ArmA 2 Epoch - It was a HUGE cash cow and hosters were making big money each month, I do not believe the devs want to go back to that.

To my knowledge you are able to sell ArmA III items that dont give you an unfair advantage over other players and NOTHING EPOCH related because they have not given you permission to sell their work, & its that simple.

[SkyDogs]

The way I read Sequisha's post, is that you can't sell anything, not even your own time and labour, if you're running Epoch.

So let's say you offer in-game tutorials, or chaperoning for new players, in exchange for donations, you would even need Epoch permission for that.

Personally I think it would be difficult to enforce, but that's how I've read it.

Anyone??

[Sequisha]

The way I read Sequisha's post, is that you can't sell anything, not even your own time and labour, if you're running Epoch.

So let's say you offer in-game tutorials, or chaperoning for new players, in exchange for donations, you would even need Epoch permission for that.

Personally I think it would be difficult to enforce, but that's how I've read it.

Anyone??

Please provide a scenario in which someone should be able to sell something that doesn't give a player an unfair advantage.

Try to be realistic and consider what a player would actually like to purchase.

Looking back on all of the donator shops that we've seen. none of it has ever been cosmetic and has always offered items that would normally take a regular player a fair bit of time to obtain.

[Darth_Rogue]

Items a player would want to purchase:

 

Krypto

Weapons and/or weapon attachments

Vests

Backpacks

Base building kits/materials (or pre-fabbed bases)

Vehicles

 

 

 

All of those items in one way or another will give a player a head start over another player who cannot or chooses not to purchase them from a donator shop.  That list of items are basically all that you can get in game, so there's really nothing else left that can be "sold" to a player, except maybe food and drink.  Even food and drink being sold in a donator shop gives a slight gameplay advantage since a player who starts out with food items can get their stamina up more quickly than a player without them, or also in cases where the server has high population and many loot spots have already been cleaned out.  

 

The game is built around the idea that everyone has a level playing field and equal chance to survive.  How well a player does so is (largely) up to his/her own skill level and the luck of being in the right place at the right time to find loot items.  Selling game items in a donator shop tips the scales in the paying player's direction, thereby disrupting the balance of the game.  It's community-sanctioned cheating basically.  

[Fog Horn]

Items a player would want to purchase:

 

Krypto

Weapons and/or weapon attachments

Vests

Backpacks

Base building kits/materials (or pre-fabbed bases)

Vehicles

 

 

 

All of those items in one way or another will give a player a head start over another player who cannot or chooses not to purchase them from a donator shop.  That list of items are basically all that you can get in game, so there's really nothing else left that can be "sold" to a player, except maybe food and drink.  Even food and drink being sold in a donator shop gives a slight gameplay advantage since a player who starts out with food items can get their stamina up more quickly than a player without them, or also in cases where the server has high population and many loot spots have already been cleaned out.  

 

The game is built around the idea that everyone has a level playing field and equal chance to survive.  How well a player does so is (largely) up to his/her own skill level and the luck of being in the right place at the right time to find loot items.  Selling game items in a donator shop tips the scales in the paying player's direction, thereby disrupting the balance of the game.  It's community-sanctioned cheating basically.  

I agree , but there is a difference getween BI created items and Epoch Dev team created items , advantage or not , so lets keep that in mind .

[Darth_Rogue]

I agree , but there is a difference getween BI created items and Epoch Dev team created items , advantage or not , so lets keep that in mind .

 

 

True.  But since the Epoch team has altered many of the BI items, like vests, headgear, vehicles, etc. then you're going to get into the hair splitting argument of "now that the Epoch team has reconfigured these BI-created items for use in their mod, doesn't that now make them Epoch items?"

[SkyDogs]

Please provide a scenario in which someone should be able to sell something that doesn't give a player an unfair advantage.

Try to be realistic and consider what a player would actually like to purchase.

 

 

Not sure if you meant...COULD, but nevertheless, I'll attempt to answer both questions, although the SHOULD question is actually two. 

 

OK, the SHOULD questions......Well, for a start, there needs to be two types of servers....Servers with shops, and servers without. Like in the DLC argument, in which Mensaman couldn't grasp what I was saying, which was....I would've liked a choice of servers.....DLC servers, no DLC servers. Populations being equal, I would choose NO DLC as I don't have it. 

My thinking behind this is that a player knows and understands what he/she is partaking in, before they invest time into that server. In this scenario, you should be able to sell what the feck you like, as it's the same for everyone. Although, realistically, people would only buy building materials, currency and plots (why have I never seen plots/land for rent on servers?).

 

SHOULD question 2.....Nobody but the creator should be able to sell anything but their time, in my opinion. If you remember the whole debate months back, you'll see I'm on record stating this sentiment. You made it, only you and who you allow, should be able to sell shit. Personally, I think you should allow communities to sell your creations as long as you get a cut, and as long as the server is clearly advertised as P2W from the start. 

 

 

COULD...

 

My first answer kind of removes the unfair point, as everyone playing in a P2W  server will be knowingly, and willingly doing so. But nevertheless, I knew your meaning of the question, so I'll attempt to answer it. (You could have condition on permission, that all servers with a store, have to run a server without a store.)

 

 You could sell exclusive skins to clans, although I'm aware of the protective elements. Yeah, that's about it, but we all knew that anyway, didn't we? 

 

Look, fuck the principles Sequisha, just make some money for the work that you've done. There's nothing wrong with P2W as long as it's the same for everyone. If you've got the choice between a P2W server, and a non P2W, then what's the problem? 

 

You could corner the Epoch market here if you put your mind to it, but we know that's not what you're about. But you really should be earning something, if communities are earning off the backs of your work. Slap in a commission condition, and enjoy the rewards. Just my opinion.

[Richie]

Please provide a scenario in which someone should be able to sell something that doesn't give a player an unfair advantage.

Try to be realistic and consider what a player would actually like to purchase.

Looking back on all of the donator shops that we've seen. none of it has ever been cosmetic and has always offered items that would normally take a regular player a fair bit of time to obtain.

 

I would say clan skins :unsure: either uniforms or vehicle skins.

[Darth_Rogue]

Not sure if you meant...COULD, but nevertheless, I'll attempt to answer both questions, although the SHOULD question is actually two. 

 

OK, the SHOULD questions......Well, for a start, there needs to be two types of servers....Servers with shops, and servers without. Like in the DLC argument, in which Mensaman couldn't grasp what I was saying, which was....I would've liked a choice of servers.....DLC servers, no DLC servers. Populations being equal, I would choose NO DLC as I don't have it. 

My thinking behind this is that a player knows and understands what he/she is partaking in, before they invest time into that server. In this scenario, you should be able to sell what the feck you like, as it's the same for everyone. Although, realistically, people would only buy building materials, currency and plots (why have I never seen plots/land for rent on servers?).

 

SHOULD question 2.....Nobody but the creator should be able to sell anything but their time, in my opinion. If you remember the whole debate months back, you'll see I'm on record stating this sentiment. You made it, only you and who you allow, should be able to sell shit. Personally, I think you should allow communities to sell your creations as long as you get a cut, and as long as the server is clearly advertised as P2W from the start. 

 

 

COULD...

 

My first answer kind of removes the unfair point, as everyone playing in a P2W  server will be knowingly, and willingly doing so. But nevertheless, I knew your meaning of the question, so I'll attempt to answer it. (You could have condition on permission, that all servers with a store, have to run a server without a store.)

 

 You could sell exclusive skins to clans, although I'm aware of the protective elements. Yeah, that's about it, but we all knew that anyway, didn't we? 

 

Look, fuck the principles Sequisha, just make some money for the work that you've done. There's nothing wrong with P2W as long as it's the same for everyone. If you've got the choice between a P2W server, and a non P2W, then what's the problem? 

 

You could corner the Epoch market here if you put your mind to it, but we know that's not what you're about. But you really should be earning something, if communities are earning off the backs of your work. Slap in a commission condition, and enjoy the rewards. Just my opinion.

 

 

Ok but here's the kicker.  P2W servers typically have a higher player population than those that don't.  Why is that?  Because there are way too many people today who want instant gratification.  They don't want to work for anything.  So they play on a server where they can get what they want when they want it.  Paying the money to get it is of no consequence to them because "all problems can be fixed if you throw enough money at them".  So how is that fair to communities who don't run donator shops then?  You're right, it is just as much about principals as it is ethics.  I'd rather shut my servers down because I can't afford to pay for them as opposed to selling game items, because that puts not only my paying players at an advantage over my non-paying players, it also puts my server at an advantage over other servers who don't sell items because I'm now getting more traffic than they are.  Server popularity should be based on the quality of the server itself and the quality of the people who run it, not the perks that can be bought with real cash.  

[f3cuk]

Question: Did BI pay (or in any way reward) you guys for putting the DLC crap in Epoch? I cannot comprehend that decision otherwise, tops the list of P2W imho. (why not use open source alternatives if it was a content wise decision)

[Darth_Rogue]

Why would they NOT put the DLC stuff in?  If people have it then let them enjoy it.  They left it up to server owners to decide whether to run them on their server or not by giving access to the vehicle spawn list so the karts and helis could be disabled.  

 

And to answer your edit, using other people's content in conjunction with Epoch just isn't smart in the long term.  Firstly, you have to get permission from the author to use it.  That permission could be revoked at any time and for any reason (which has happened in the past), which would leave the Epoch community hanging since they have all these vehicles on their servers that they can't use now because the files to support them are gone.  Secondly, what if they author stops updating their addon and a new Arma patch is released that breaks something?  You're back to the problem revealed in the first reason.  Thirdly, everything the devs add to Epoch adds MBs to the file size of the mod, thereby increasing their bandwidth consumption and hosting costs and also makes it less convenient for players since they have to spend more time downloading and less time playing.  Furthermore, if they don't include it as part of the Epoch pack and just require a separate download, you will see more instances of players not being able to connect to servers because they don't have all the right mods loaded.  There's WAY more reasons to NOT include open source alternatives than there are to include them.  

[f3cuk]

Because it gives players that pay extra money an advantage over players that don't. ARMA 3 is expensive enough on it's own. Content wise they add little to nothing and if that was the thing that made them decide they should have gone open source alternatives that everyone can enjoy. I just don't get how they can be so against P2W, and then add P2W stuff in the mod. It just doesnt rhyme.

[Darth_Rogue]

The DLC karts and helis offer no advantages to players.  Non of the helis included in the Epoch spawn list are armed.  The Mohawk, which is part of vanilla A3, has the ability to haul multiple players and gear.  So if a player doesn't have the DLC helis he or she still has the ability to transport players and gear, just the same as a player who has the DLC helis and can use the Taru and Chinook.  There's no advantage there.  Now let's take that one step further....all players can get in the DLC helis.  They just can't fly them if they don't have the DLC pack.  And the karts.....well the karts are the karts.  Once again, no advantages.  

 

I do feel, however, that server owners should be aware of the fact that not everyone will have purchased the DLC and won't have the ability to fly all the helis.  That's why on my servers there are 4 Mohawks and 4 Little Birds that spawn and only 1 each of all the DLC helis. 

[f3cuk]

Why would they NOT put the DLC stuff in?  If people have it then let them enjoy it.  They left it up to server owners to decide whether to run them on their server or not by giving access to the vehicle spawn list so the karts and helis could be disabled.  

 

And to answer your edit, using other people's content in conjunction with Epoch just isn't smart in the long term.  Firstly, you have to get permission from the author to use it.  That permission could be revoked at any time and for any reason (which has happened in the past), which would leave the Epoch community hanging since they have all these vehicles on their servers that they can't use now because the files to support them are gone.  Secondly, what if they author stops updating their addon and a new Arma patch is released that breaks something?  You're back to the problem revealed in the first reason.  Thirdly, everything the devs add to Epoch adds MBs to the file size of the mod, thereby increasing their bandwidth consumption and hosting costs and also makes it less convenient for players since they have to spend more time downloading and less time playing.  Furthermore, if they don't include it as part of the Epoch pack and just require a separate download, you will see more instances of players not being able to connect to servers because they don't have all the right mods loaded.  There's WAY more reasons to NOT include open source alternatives than there are to include them.  

 

You cannot actually believe this yourself, that would render the whole modding community completely useless. I believe they have proven their worth, in fact, they are invaluable to the success of Epoch. The bandwith argument is just bullcrap (and you know it is). Yes authors might revoke access or whatever, but that is a big might and even though it may have happened in the past, im pretty sure that if you look at statistics this has been like 1/10 case, are you going to deny the 9 that actually did add to the mod just because the one fucks up? That is stupid.

 

The DLC karts and helis offer no advantages to players.  Non of the helis included in the Epoch spawn list are armed.  The Mohawk, which is part of vanilla A3, has the ability to haul multiple players and gear.  So if a player doesn't have the DLC helis he or she still has the ability to transport players and gear, just the same as a player who has the DLC helis and can use the Taru and Chinook.  There's no advantage there.  Now let's take that one step further....all players can get in the DLC helis.  They just can't fly them if they don't have the DLC pack.  And the karts.....well the karts are the karts.  Once again, no advantages.  

 

Any means of quicker transport is already an advantage. If you have the DLC you have something that 90% of the players do not have and therefore have a far greater chance of finding a means of transport. Yes you can haul with other vehicles, but again chance is in your favor if you buy extra DLC stuff. Anyone that has played on decently busy Epoch server will agree that vehicles you find most often are the DLC ones. I fail to understand how you do not see means of quicker transport as a big advantage. Not sure, but i think you can sell them aswell, krypto - as stated above by Sequisha - is something considered to give a player advantage.

[SkyDogs]

Ok but here's the kicker. P2W servers typically have a higher player population than those that don't. Why is that?

Many factors at work I would imagine. The community can afford superior hardware, resulting in better performing servers. The already established population attracts the players, some then buy their currency/build materials from the shop.

Look, nobody, or very very few people will purchase in game items from a community with a low population. From where I've been standing, the population always came first, then the stores followed. Call it what you want...greed, capitalising from eager kids, whatever....it is what it is, it's prevalent in the gaming industry, so you either join them and put your own ethics into the monetisation of your servers, or you stand the costs yourself and run a nice, fair, level playing field.

Paying the money to get it is of no consequence to them because "all problems can be fixed if you throw enough money at them". So how is that fair to communities who don't run donator shops then?

I can't grasp your logic here, sorry. Unfair to who? The owners or the players? Do you mean it's unfair to the players because they don't have the option to purchase progression?

[Darth_Rogue]

You cannot actually believe this yourself, that would render the whole modding community completely useless. I believe they have proven their worth, in fact, they are invaluable to the success of Epoch. The bandwith argument is just bullcrap (and you know it is). Yes authors might revoke access or whatever, but that is a big might and even though it may have happened in the past, im pretty sure that if you look at statistics this has been like 1/10 case, are you going to deny the 9 that actually did add to the mod just because the one fucks up? That is stupid.

 

 

Any means of quicker transport is already an advantage. If you have the DLC you have something that 90% of the players do not have and therefore have a far greater chance of finding a means of transport. Yes you can haul with other vehicles, but again chance is in your favor if you buy extra DLC stuff. Anyone that has played on decently busy Epoch server will agree that vehicles you find most often are the DLC ones. I fail to understand how you do not see means of quicker transport as a big advantage. Not sure, but i think you can sell them aswell, krypto - as stated above by Sequisha - is something considered to give a player advantage.

 

Having been burned in the past by VIL I totally understand their decision to only include items in Epoch that they make themselves or is included in the game by default.  Then that's something they just don't have to worry about.  You're right that the bandwidth argument is truly a non-issue for the most part, especially since torrenting the files seems to be the way to go these days anyhow.  But the issue of players not having the correct mods loaded, that's a huge one and it's costing we server owners players every day as it sits.  Why make it worse?

 

Leaving the DLC helis and karts out of Epoch wouldn't have changed anything.  There would have been server owners who would have found a way to add them anyways.  EMod, anyone?  

[cen]

Items a player would want to purchase:

 

Krypto

Weapons and/or weapon attachments

Vests

Backpacks

Base building kits/materials (or pre-fabbed bases)

Vehicles

 

 

 

All of those items in one way or another will give a player a head start over another player who cannot or chooses not to purchase them from a donator shop.  That list of items are basically all that you can get in game, so there's really nothing else left that can be "sold" to a player, except maybe food and drink.  Even food and drink being sold in a donator shop gives a slight gameplay advantage since a player who starts out with food items can get their stamina up more quickly than a player without them, or also in cases where the server has high population and many loot spots have already been cleaned out.  

 

The game is built around the idea that everyone has a level playing field and equal chance to survive.  How well a player does so is (largely) up to his/her own skill level and the luck of being in the right place at the right time to find loot items.  Selling game items in a donator shop tips the scales in the paying player's direction, thereby disrupting the balance of the game.  It's community-sanctioned cheating basically.  

 

This argument is factually wrong in so many ways and has more holes than swiss cheese and I'll tell you why.

 

This game is NOT built around the idea that everyone has a level playing field. If you've been playing on a server for 6 months and have a huge base with every item in-game that you've looted and horded, and I just started playing the server today, how is that a level playing field?

 

How is it any different if I've played on a server for 6 months and have gathered all my gear vs. a player who donates to support a server for that same gear?

 

Amount of time I've put in to gathering now dictates what is a "level" playing field?

 

Another scenario, two guys are fresh spawns in Cherno, player 1 is a lone wolf, player 2 has a squad of 5 on the server with a heli. Player 2 gets picked up with heli while player 1 gets shot by said heli. Level-playing field? Of course not, but who cares :)

[SkyDogs]

CEN, I think you're a server owner, right?

Quick question to run by you. It's not really to prove a point, so please don't take it as such.

If the devs gave their holy blessing on donator shops but with a commission condition, would you opt in, or tell them to fuck off?

[cen]

I would have zero issues with it as I've donated to epoch in the past.

 

Any money above server costs are used to donate back to the community, run events with prizes (not in-game items), or give gifts to my admin team.

 

I don't run servers to profit or make money.

 

If I was in this to make money it would be the WORST HOURLY RATE KNOWN TO MAN :D

[SkyDogs]

If I was in this to make money it would be the WORST HOURLY RATE KNOWN TO MAN :D

Bollocks! Try taxi driving in January. There's been nights I've come home worse off. Lol.

Thanks for the answer. Now I'm going to try and push my luck, this time it is to prove (hopefully) a point.

If the devs decide to withhold permission, will you just think, fuck it, I'll take my chances with loopholes and redtape?

[TheVampire]

Bollocks! Try taxi driving in January. There's been nights I've come home worse off. Lol.

Thanks for the answer. Now I'm going to try and push my luck, this time it is to prove (hopefully) a point.

If the devs decide to withhold permission, will you just think, fuck it, I'll take my chances with loopholes and redtape?

 

Although it is up to the devs to do so, and everyone seems to have taken it as such, I don't think they would have a problem as long as you don't monetize Epoch assets. (I'm assuming they can give conditional yes's?)

But if you are running Epoch, there are very few ways you could monetize without monetizing its content.

[Xyz]

Ok but here's the kicker.  P2W servers typically have a higher player population than those that don't.  Why is that?  Because there are way too many people today who want instant gratification.  They don't want to work for anything.  So they play on a server where they can get what they want when they want it.  Paying the money to get it is of no consequence to them because "all problems can be fixed if you throw enough money at them".  So how is that fair to communities who don't run donator shops then?  You're right, it is just as much about principals as it is ethics.  I'd rather shut my servers down because I can't afford to pay for them as opposed to selling game items, because that puts not only my paying players at an advantage over my non-paying players, it also puts my server at an advantage over other servers who don't sell items because I'm now getting more traffic than they are.  Server popularity should be based on the quality of the server itself and the quality of the people who run it, not the perks that can be bought with real cash.  

 

False, P2W servers have higher population because there's 2 motivations to running an epoch server: 1) For money 2) Legitimate cheating as an admin

 

The servers that are there to collect money do not have Admin abuse, do not have cheating admins... 99% of the small community servers do. I've played on CCG for almost a year, the reason i hear repeatedly why people want to play there is this: Admins do not interfere with gameplay, there are no ACTIVE admins on the servers (no-one that cheats, no-one that spawns in shit to their clan, no-one to bend the rules to their favor)... Even though these servers hate CCG, sorry to say but they have the BEST epoch experience i've ever had. I've NEVER needed to worry about admin abuse, admin cheating, rules changing.

 

Sure there might be like 3 servers out there where the admins dont bend the rules, cheat or do shit for their clan... but I'm done taking my chances with those shitty servers, if this "CCG P2W" gets me to enjoy the game to 100% without having to worry about cheating cunts, let them monetize.,

[SkyDogs]

Although it is up to the devs to do so, and everyone seems to have taken it as such, I don't think they would have a problem as long as you don't monetize Epoch assets. (I'm assuming they can give conditional yes's?)

But if you are running Epoch, there are very few ways you could monetize without monetizing its content.

 

 

Sequisha has already stated that you need Epoch's permission if you are running Epoch, regardless of what items you're selling. People will be arguing the toss, and a big war of words will follow, while they run their shops regardless. 

 

It's going to be interesting, and I can't wait for the meaty threads on here, as I do like to stick my nose in, even though I have absolutely no intention on running, or being involved (staff) with, a community.

 

There will only be one end result, and it is pretty obvious what it'll be, so, in my opinion, you're best using Occam's razor to reach it. 

[SkyDogs]

False, P2W servers have higher population because there's 2 motivations to running an epoch server: 1) For money 2) Legitimate cheating as an admin

 

The servers that are there to collect money do not have Admin abuse, do not have cheating admins... 99% of the small community servers do. I've played on CCG for almost a year, the reason i hear repeatedly why people want to play there is this: Admins do not interfere with gameplay, there are no ACTIVE admins on the servers (no-one that cheats, no-one that spawns in shit to their clan, no-one to bend the rules to their favor)... Even though these servers hate CCG, sorry to say but they have the BEST epoch experience i've ever had. I've NEVER needed to worry about admin abuse, admin cheating, rules changing.

 

Sure there might be like 3 servers out there where the admins dont bend the rules, cheat or do shit for their clan... but I'm done taking my chances with those shitty servers, if this "CCG P2W" gets me to enjoy the game to 100% without having to worry about cheating cunts, let them monetize.,

 

 

AMEN, brother.

 

But take a cut.....Epoch.

 

I have never met an admin that hasn't used their powers to benefit themselves or their mates. I advocate admin perks for a type of payment for their work, such as the ability to spawn in building materials for their base. If servers had working admins instead of playing admins, there wouldn't even be need for that.